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PIP assessment
swifty
Member Posts: 8 Connected
hello everyone, never thought that I would ever need to do something like this, actually embarrassed at my situation. Little background info - woke up in January with a really sore stomach and back. Was admitted to hospital for 4 days where they ran blood/urine tests. Received a ultrasound on my ovaries where all was normal. Went for a CT scan, again all normal. I have been living with constant severe back pain since. Nothing found on MRI. Just went for another MRI of full spine and head and waiting for results. So been off work since January and take morphine tablets as well as liquid. On a bunch of other meds too. Everyone told me to claim PIP but only recently done it.
Went for my assessment today and truthfully was dreading it as I’ve read so many horror stories! Anyway the nurse who interviewed me was actually really nice. My issue is that she didn’t ask me to do any physical movements or exercises as she “could see I was in pain”. Has anyone else ever had this and is this a good or bad thing? This money is desperately needed as I have no pay now. So worried why she didn’t ask me to do anything and what she may put in report i.e refused to do anything.
Sorry for the long winded message but any help/advice/comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Went for my assessment today and truthfully was dreading it as I’ve read so many horror stories! Anyway the nurse who interviewed me was actually really nice. My issue is that she didn’t ask me to do any physical movements or exercises as she “could see I was in pain”. Has anyone else ever had this and is this a good or bad thing? This money is desperately needed as I have no pay now. So worried why she didn’t ask me to do anything and what she may put in report i.e refused to do anything.
Sorry for the long winded message but any help/advice/comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Replies
Understand the issues around PIP assessment. I can just say we all of us who have done these. Have moments of regrets and get guilts. All the time getting anxiety. You have in the end of the day. Done your best and to reassure you we are here to support and help you.
All I can add is please try to not to worry. Think of positivity. My concern is right now and what happens next.
Your wellbeing and health . Try to get help and support for anything you might need. Advice and information. Have a look at our Posts. Dealing with Chronic Pain might be useful.
We are a supportive friendly community care and share.
Ask the community anything some one will know. Ready to listen.
Wish you the best for a successful outcome.
Take care
@thespiceman
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Welcome to Scope's online community! It's great to have you on board.
Best of luck for a successful result for your assessment. I've moved this post into our dedicated PIP category, so other members of our community can share their experiences and offer their advice and support.
If you have any other questions, then please do get in touch!
This is so confusing as I read on so many comments on google where they said doctor hadn’t been contacted.
That's why there are so many incompetent and dishonest reports - and therefore why 71% of appeals win.
Regards Doug
Now sure there are some HCPs with limited life experience and limited knowledge of certain conditions but that’s not a problem if the functional consequences rather than the condition itself are explained to them.
DLA used doctors and the outcome, measured over a 22 year period, was that it didn’t produce accurate results. I don’t think you could have any stronger evidence that medical training is not the issue when it comes to functional outcomes.
It’s illustrative of just how far the PIP process is from what people think it is, and how much it is misunderstood, that comments thus far agree with Joe.
II don' explain what my conditions are, and I do tell the assessors about my functional limitations. I've still had multiple bad experiences with assessors who didn't know what one of my conditions was:
One assessor didn't allow me to talk about important functional issues because he didn't understand that they were part of that condition.
A couple of assessors have had silly/wrong ideas about what a condition is/means. e.g. One of mine, a physio, clearly didn't understand that depression (I have chronic refractory major depressive disorder) can be worse than moping about feeling sad. She completely discounted all the functional effects from my depression, and wrote things like, "Unlikely to be due to depression".
One assessor just ignored my mental health completely.
The one thing which is certain is that the solution is not more medically qualified people.
Another is requesting me to perform movements that WILL aggravate cord injury but crucially not until later - invitation to see effect on me e.g. next day consistently refused.. The reply to last report requested from the surgeon who carried out my last lot of spinal surgery read "I suggest someone with basic medical knowledge reads this gentleman's notes and repeat prescriptions" - enough said I believe.
As regards PIP and DLA the reality is that both types of assessment allow assessment of what can reasonably be done provided sufficient information was put in the claim pack. The standard line from claimants is that they list their conditions in the claim pack but don’t explain the consequences because they’d rather do that face to face or they’re not going to explain it because they assume medical professionals are involved and will therefore know all about it.
Both assumptions are wholly wrong. The claim pack is the place to fully explain conditions and their consequences. The assessment is not the place for that discussion. There simply isn’t ever going to be the time. It is the place where the assessor forms their own view based on the claim pack and what they see. They can’t possibly know or quickly learn the consequences of most conditions so if it’s not fully laid out in a claim pack then of course the assessment will fall short.
I agree with some of what you say.
I can only tell you that my Pip application was a long, fully detailed description of my abilities, with the help of a guide, for each descriptor that pertained to me. I added an A4 sheet for virtually every descriptor. It was a fully detailed application.
Many people have unseen conditions, illnesses/ disabilities and this is something that is very difficult for the HCP to assess. However, during my assessment, which took place at my home, the assessor was continually trying to get me to say things that contradicted what I had stated on my application. (I had a friend with me taking notes.)
I do not cook (I also have a lower arm disability). I had already stated this during assessment. We discussed this discriptor. A minute later, she asked me if I live on my own. Then she said: "So, you cook for yourself then?" This continued throughout the assessment. Luckily, I have experience of this. Far too much experience. She didn't catch me out. I was prepared. So the HCP resorted to lying on the report to stop me getting points/higher rate. Shameful.
If you try to do the movements during the assessment, even though you know it's going to cause you pain and you are unable to do them without leaning on chairs or walls/ people, then they'll say you are able to do it, despite the pain and discomfort that it's clearly causing you and negative aftereffects. On the other hand, if you don't do the movements because of pain etc. they report you "refused" to do it. Or, don't even ask the client and say they refused. It really is Kafkaesque.
I'm glad some people are treated fairly and respectfully but there is still a long way to go. A private company that is paid to assess ppl-often seems like they are paid to get rid of as many as possible. The assessor should be independent and have no targets/bonuses related to numbers completed or denied claims.
I won at MR stage on 2 separate benefits. At this stage, I stated clearly how many points I thought I should receive for each descriptor and why. I also sent in more evidence. The DWP ended up sending the report back to the provider to get them to change it. I'm convinced, for me personally, that I will never get any of the benefits in the first instance. It takes a senior manager or senior caseworker to look at my case for me to get the benefit that I qualify for. I went from 0 points/ fit for work to getting full points on ONE descriptor for my ESA CB. From 0 points to standard PIP at MR stage.
It has cost me a lot though, healthwise. My health has worsened as a consequence. I've been going through these processes for over 2 years now......! Still, at least I've managed to be successful, up to a point. But it shouldn't have to cost me, or anyone else, what's left of their health.
Peace out.
Now had PIP assessment. Having had to fill out DSS forms for 25 years I consider myself quite proficient at doing so. I am extremely careful to include a full explanation of conditions and consequences WHERE POSSIBLE. The PIP form being an excellent example of circumventing this by design an example being do you use mobility aids - there is no space to state that you do not because you have been assessed against them and told NOT to use them as they will exacerbate spinal issues._ DSS assumption is that once assessed as requiring a / being a wheelchair user you will not try to walk at all.
Request for on-line or Word format (i.e. accessible) doc met with incredulity and "we haven't been asked for his before" - Really ? dealing solely with disabled people the majority of whom such as myself use a PC to type everything.
Able to park 2 yards from centre door so didn't use wheelchair but walked supported by my carer. Painful, but encouraged by my OT as good for my heart disease, arthritis and Diabetes to remain as mobile as possible.
All seats at centre were very low plastic with no arms, lumbar support or height adjustment. This meant unable to stand up unaided - in 2018 a center which deals specifically with disabled clients doesn't understand basic seating requirements ? or a carefully thought out ploy ?
Asked to "come through" to be faced with a staircase. Only after several seconds of standing looking at stairs was I told, I was watching your face for reaction - then told lift around corner.
Assessor stated that she had read forms so was fully aware of medical conditions, then asked me why I could not get in and out of a bath - I have a damaged spinal cord and am assessed as wheelchair dependent (By NHS Wheelchair Unit).
When I replied "I have high level spinal cord damage" I was asked to elaborate. Rather kills your points regarding not explaining medical conditions.
Asked about school / education. Replied Grammar School plus Professional qualifications and .Post Grad Level education, entitled to use prefix DR.
Asked what my last job was, replied IT Consultant, asked if this was manual clerical etc.
Then asked if I had passed GCSE's (O Levels) in English and Maths !!!!
Lots of questions about shopping - 99% of which is done by carer.
Ditto Cooking.
Basically totally inappropriate set of questions to establish what I can and cannot reasonably do.
Conclusion, this process is not aimed at those of us with long term disabilities and is NOT fit for purpose.
Thanks for posting.
PIP has absolutely nothing to do with your education or work experience. It is not a work-related benefit. Your education shouldn't really come into it. As part of your social history, it's understandable, but going into great detail about these things is unnecessary.
It is different for ESA. That is a work-related benefit. Pip has nothing to do with work- some people receive PIP and work and some do not.
I need more help than I currently get. They (DWP/assessors) seem to draw the conclusion that if you don't have that help, then it must mean you don't need it. This is not the case.
Our social care system has been decimated by cuts. That's one reason why PIP is so important.
@mikehughescq is right though. One must focus on the descriptors, not the illness /condition /disability. It's how it affects your ability to do specific activities in daily living and mobility.
The application itself is a bit of a nightmare. I would maintain that even the application is designed to trip you up. It is difficult to understand what some of the questions mean. A guide is necessary to navigate through it.
I don't want to be cynical but it seems every stage of the process is designed in a way that means you need to be a benefits lawyer to get through it and get what you qualify for. It is purposely done this way. It's not accidental.
Your experience re: the stairs/lift during assessment.....They have no shame.
Despite this, we will prevail. ☺
I had my pip assessment on 8th Aug 2018, l asked for a copy of the report on the 16th Aug l was told 7 to 10 days ,I've just phoned DWP and asked where copy was they told me l didn't request a copy till the 24th, I did phone on 24th to give the additional information so either the call taker on 16th didn't put request in or chap I spoke to today is telling porkies, I kept on telling him l requested copy on 16th but he wasn't interested, it all a farce
@angel137 one of the issues you will have had with your claim is that a sheet of A4 per descriptor is simply too much. I have yet to come across any condition which can’t be illustrated with a couple of contrasting but detailed examples per descriptor. No-one is going to read that volume of material until the appeal stage and that’s why you’ll have needed an MR. And whilst you’re right that PIP is not a work-related benefit I'm afraid employment history is absolutely relevant. See below.
I disagree with @jae377 re: “where possible”. You don’t need an online form to be able to add info. and there’s definitely enough space to state you have been recommended to not use aids. You can just add extra sheets as you wish though.
Again though there’s this assumption that the questions don’t apply to you. Shopping is relevant to mobility; motivation; navigating; budgeting, communication, reading and engaging. Education is relevant to the last 4 of those. Work history is relevant to reading, budgeting, motivation, communication and engagement also. In a limited time these are good well directed questions the answers to which will either reinforce or contradict the answers given in a claim pack.
The answer is that the PIP assessment is a functional assessment but does not have to include functional testing as it’s not a medical. Indeed, if they have been given up to date functional information then their guidance suggests they should not and ditto if it would cause pain or distress. The lack of functional testing is for the most part a good thing.
Absolutely.
To clarify though, I didn't add a FULL A4 sheet to every descriptor! I just added info. where necessary and where I felt I needed further detail for those descriptors I knew were important for my application.
Having said that, I think I did make my MR too long, but it really is difficult to determine at that stage how much is too much. You want to keep it as short as possible but if you've been given 0 points, you have to no choice but to go through every single descriptor that pertains to you.... It was exhausting, but I was successful.
@dougal1 Whenever you speak to the DWP, you need to write down why you called and what's been said. Keep a diary. If you request a report, any requests, you need to put that request in writing (as well as calling them). That way, if anything goes wrong, the DWP will have it on record. Only a short statement is needed. Send it "signed for" if you can. Keep the receipt.
Other post: "Cooking" means preparing a meal from scratch. It potentially involves lifting pots, boiling a kettle, standing for longer periods, etc. so if you have back pain and leg pain, or other disabilities with regard to standing, lifting, grasping, carrying, or if you have cognitive or neurological symptoms, that is relevant for this descriptor. If you are unable to cook and mostly use pre prepared foods,/ are unable to stand for longer periods due to exhaustion or pain, for example, then you may get points for this descriptor.
I have just received my assessor's report, mmmm interesting reading, according to the assessor l have normal movement in my left ankle ,odd that I've not had that for 20 years, got a physio pal of mine to check he was appalled at what she ( the assessor who was a nurse) must have put a generalised statement down, l also had my right hand in bandages from previous days opp she put down l had normal grip in right hand, odd that because I refused to let her touch it as it was to painful, l just wonder sometimes what the hell is going on.
Response staggered me, Atos had totally ignored my damaged spinal cord (incurable - 17 hours of surgery just to stabilise my neck / spine) in every report but stated that the reason I was in a wheelchair was unclear - which might improve - hence yearly review.
Sent to specialist spinal unit for Independent assessment. Report stated that no known cure for high level spinal cord damage (C4/C5) exists. - end of assessments.
Just had my own PIP assessment and am now awaiting with interest copy of the report. Given that guidelines state "where clear entitlement exists an assessment will not be needed" and I have been on highest level DLA mobility for 23 years I am not expecting it to be accurate or truthful.
Farce is an understatement, you could make a comedy series out of this
I am not very hopeful regarding outcome of this but must wait and see.
But the reality is that there are very few organisations in some areas which has created a 'desert'.
Having been brought up for the first 40 years of my life in and around the towns of Lancashire (Blackburn, Rochdale, Oldham & Bury) I am acutely aware that there used to be Welfare Rights organisations in abundance.
Now living in the rural parts of Kent for the last 30 years where even if you would like to go out for a meal on a Saturday night, journeys of one hour are common.
Welfare Rights organisations do exist but they are so inundated with people wanting help that the queues mean waits of 1/2 months are common and that is just to be registered for help (as with the CAB) It can then be another 4/8 weeks before you get to see anybody. Time limits imposed by the DWP make it impossible to wait that length of time.
AgeUK had to close up due to loss of funding. It has since reopened but no longer has a quality welfare rights service - their local website says that they offer a service of helping to fill out forms only
Council run services were cut some years ago
As I have mentioned in the past, I have had the experience of having a Professor of Law from the local university represent me at a Tribunal for a Council Tax appeal. He was utterly amazing in the way that he briefed me before hand but also how he handled the legal aspects of the hearing. I have never seen so many books of law on one table spread between the Judge, Counsel for the local authority and my rep. I just sat back and let it all happen. I came out of there thousands of pounds better off and the local authority being told to revise their guidance.
Sadly they no longer deal with these mundane types of claims - their time is now taken up by the massive volumes of appeals etc for illegal immigrants held in our local detention centres. Not only do we have the quiet beaches where they land as was the case last year in Dymchurch, but also the Channel Tunnel and the docks at Dover.
There are some advice deserts but very few compared to what it could have looked like. In many areas advice services are now being refunded as a means to tackle things like UC. Even the delays are surmountable. An MR is hardly onerous for someone to do themselves and, understanding that most will fail, it’s easy enough to book an advance appointment to look at an appeal. Time limits are easily surmountable nowadays. Late MRs are relatively straightforward and you have to be really trying to not get a late appeal admitted. They’re just administrative deadlines.
I’ve also commented before on what good advice looks like. It certainly doesn’t look like those who claim 100% success rates but equally it doesn’t look like a pile of law books on a table. It’s an old trick. Nobody needs that for a tribunal. It’s just intimidation. Sometimes it works. Sometimes, quite rightly, you’ll be made to look like the **** you are for trying to pull such a stunt. Glad it worked for you but ph dearie me.
Love the illegal immigrants bit. There’s actually no such thing in law.
They are not all administrative deadlines - there is the overriding 13 month deadline for instance.
For the ordinary guy in the street I would imagine that popping off a MR application 12 months after the decision letter date would not be acceptable to the DWP. If it is that easy and the DWP play ball up to the 13 month deadline why on earth do people continually press the point that they must get the MR application in within the 30 days?
Likewise appeals to the MOJ, so they tell us, must be in within 30 days of the MR decision. Why bother if you really have a 13 month window that you can use?
In the past and always due to illness/hospital admissions, and having gone beyond the 30 day limit to appeal (pre MR) I have put the files away and had to make a second application. Over the past 18 years I have never always agreed to the decisions made but because of my medical issues I have probably missed appeal time limits three times, one was when I was late in challenging the IIDB decision not to pay the 7 years of arrears. On that occasion I was in hospital with complete organ failure due to a severe acute Pancreatitis attack.
The advice that you have just given should it not be included in the DWP literature that you get with a decision? Should it not be more widely known? Or once again is it the case that you have to find a Welfare Rights organisation to enlighten you?
I really do wonder how many Joe's on the street know that you have no need to worry about any seemingly 'official' notification of the 30 day deadlines - you just need to get it in by the 13 month deadline.
Yes the 13th month time limit is absolute but that’s not hard to get round of you asl for an any time revision (as above); get refused but thus get a new decision against which to appeal.
Between 1 month and 13 there’s no issue. You used to have to show sodcoal reasims for late appeal. You no longer have to. You just have to show that your appeal has merit (that it’s not hopeless) and that it would be in the interests of justice for it to be admitted. DWP get asked if they would object to it being admitted. I’ve not heard of them doing so in years now unless the appeal truly is hopeless.
As I say the issue is not advice deserts. It’s poor information and people being easily discouraged.
Are you saying that a decision made in 2011 that was a revision to a 2004 decision can still be 'made to reopen' if I asked for an any time review - ie to test the validity of the 2011 decision that because no appeal was lodged at the time the 2004 decision was made they cannot make the backpayment for the 7 years?
If so why did the DWP tell me in 2012 (within the 13 month period) that I could not appeal as it was not an official error that caused the 2004 poor decision - it was my fault because I didn't submit the evidence at the right time errr I was in hospital for months.
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Unfortunately that level of support no longer exists in many place in the UK - the South East in particular is one of those areas.
Let me put it this way if there was such a service that would take up the fight for me then I would have not needed to close my PIP claim down.
The service you suggest exists does not do so everywhere.
If you look at the map of Kent and unless you live in Dartford, Bromley maybe or near to Rye then the rest of the area is vast and has no cover.
It may be just a quirk and I certainly agree that the rest of the UK is probably better served.
Our Council, and I should know, have closed down all of the council run advice centres due to reducing costs. We, as a council, refused to provide anymore funding to AgeUK (which caused it to close it's doors although it reopened on a skeleton basis) and reduced the amount given to the CAB for the same reason.
However I have not thought of the Jobcentre or the library (we are also in the process of closing that down early next year). The public loos and gardens are still safe for now!
I have to go to the library next week so will ask and as the JC+ is close by, I will ask there as well.
Can but try I suppose even if it is to be told that there is nothing available.
Advice web sites are good for what they are but it is better to talk a problem through face to face.
Even if you just look at say the CAB website it offers advice.