PIP is not included as income for Council Tax Support??

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  • ShirleyW
    ShirleyW Online Community Member Posts: 353 Empowering
    chiarieds said:
    Hi @ShirleyW - The OP mentioned 4 annuities & 2 work pensions in his first comment here: https://forum.scope.org.uk/discussion/86680/pension-credit-is-a-nightmare

    Thank you @chiarieds,  I thought that other income had previously been mentioned and yet there is nothing about those sources in this post....   

    I'm out.  
  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering

    Maybe, but £157 of that money was awarded for my care and mobility costs - and not for paying Council Tax, electricity/gas, insurances, food, clothing etc.
    I get your point but really most people getting PIP or disability benefits use it for general costs because the cost of living is so high.
    Seriously, I totally get what you're saying and it does seem unfair and I even get why you cancelled your pension credit claim after the stresses they put you through. Also your point about how your income could be higher but liability less is so frustrating and seems to happen a lot. But they're not going to change their mind on it and £300+ (plus your private pensions) a week for bills and living costs is do-able for most people. 
    I hear that you don't agree with their decision and I understand why, but they seem to have applied it correctly. 
    To me it seems you've two choices: You could try again with pension credit and council tax support and maybe use an advice agency to help you apply if you're finding it too much or continue as you are and pay the amount they've said. 
    Good luck <3
    Thanks, you are right in everything that you have said. Really I am 'bitching' at the system that makes life difficult for those that are in receipt of the SRP and have profound disabilities.
    Yes, the only reason that I cancelled my Pension Credit award (the DWP had already threatened to do so) was to reduce the level of stress that I was under after going through two compliance investigations covering the period October 2016 to October 2019 and November 2019 to January 2022 and a harrowing Tribunal hearing. Eventually the DWP for both found that that the overpayments could not be collected.
    The reason given to me was that I failed to notify them every time (weekly or monthly) that my income changed by 1p or more.
    Now I find that because of my actions I have landed myself with the full annual CT liability to pay, that of the £15,000 of cost of living grants I am now only able to get about £700 and that we are just over £50 down in weekly income.
    The government annoys me when it keeps pointing out that there is £15bn annually of unclaimed benefits. Then it doesn't take a mathematician to see that this £15bn that they have budgeted for is almost the same figure that the cost of living grants amount to! It is no wonder that they don't want to make any real effort to get people to claim these benefits.

    Yes for me it is either put up or shut up. I can't see me going back onto a means tested benefit - Council Tax support or Pension Credit any time soon that is unless they deal differently with us 'oldies' than they would do with a young working adult. Maintenance of these two benefits for most of those in their late 70's plus is just too much to cope with.

    As for agencies I have two that are local (within 20 miles) both no longer do home visits (which I need due to disability) and both have extremely long waiting lists if you can manage to go and see them.
    Thanks for taking the time to understand the predicament that some of my generation are put to.






  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering
    We all have a right to complain when things aern't right, I complain all the time! I think you sound really measured given the stresses. Will there be a time when it's expected your personal pensions won't change very often? So fluctuations in income aren't a concern making it easier to claim pension credit and council tax support? Or do they change regularly?
    Regularly in fact. I have a total of 5 pensions/annuities that are taxed. Not a lot to be honest - a £1 or two for each every month. It is this tax issue that caused all of the problems in the first place. Tax is never deducted in equal amounts. Sometimes it will be say £1.25 in one month then £1.30 the next month for all of them back down to £1.15 the next month. They all come on different days of the month. So in effect the Pension Service told me that they would want to see the payment advices and/or relevant bank statements when each one differs from the last payment. Over a year that would mean having to send them 60 payment advices/bank statements every year.
    Why they could not estimate the figures with me sending in 5 P60's at the end of each year but no they insisted on notifying them in writing for every change 1p and above.
    That was it, I had enough of their red tape and over the top demands - I closed the claim down. My mental health had to come first - in fact they were fully aware of how i cannot mentally cope with much having been diagnosed with PTSD - mania back in 1996 following being shot twice in attempting to stop an armed robbery. All of that info was described on my PIP claim along with other issues unconnected to it heart, lung, damaged spine along with other serious and potentially life threatening issues.  


  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering
    I get why you find it too much, that's a ridiculous expectation of them! I understand your frustration even more now! The demands are unreasonable and I know I wouldn't be able to manage the upkeep of that either. It's hit or miss if I open post at all let alone all of that endless contact and management. Crazy how much financial support you miss out on as a result. I wish there was something Icould say to help or I had any advice. :(
    Thanks for those kind words - they really do mean a lot. When I have explained the situation in the past to others the general stock reply was  - if you want the money you do what you are told.
    There is little more that I now can say other than to say thanks for attempting to walk in my shoes.
    The only way, as I have said, that I could contemplate re-claiming both Pension Credit and Council Tax Support is for the Pension Service to devise a 'work around' that would avoid me having to comply with the law in it's strict sense yet ensuring that I am neither overpaid or underpaid benefit income.

    Methinks that will not happen in my lifetime.
  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering
    Really, it does seem unfair for CTS to ignore it but them to use it as income for purposes of paying your council tax. I don't think there's a way around it though or anyhing you can do :(  £300+ a week for bills and living costs isn't that bad though. Some people on just UC only get around that a month!
    This is not what’s happening. PIP is not income for CTS as that’s enshrined in the CTS regs. 

    PIP counts as income for liability orders as those are the rules for liability orders. Nothing to do with CTS.
    Well then that's cleared it up.
    Still illogical to me though.

    I don't claim any CTS that was lost when the Pension Credit claim ceased. As for the arrears of this year's CT liability, by the end of this month the account will be brought up to date. That still leaves what is due until March 2023 from 1st July 2022. The Liability Order was obtained for the current year in total which I assume means that the Council can use my PIP to pay it. Whereas without the Order they could not use it if I had made an arrangement to pay this years Council Tax over the next 9 months??
    How about if I asked them to get rid of the Order as the account will shortly be up to date and then they cannot use my PIP to set a level of payment?

  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering
    Your level of repayment will be determined by a financial assessment looking at your disposable income if you are properly represented. Whilst PIP gets taken into account as income, your expenditure is often more relevant including other debts etc. Focusing on some perceived injustice around PIP doesn’t really help you in that respect.

    Whilst you could indeed request the discharge of a liability order I’d suggest that the failure to avail yourself of available entitlements could make you look a poor payment risk going forward and there is a risk your local authority might not agree to a discharge until they’re assured of a payment plan for next year. The climate for local authorities is not a good one at present and there is undoubtedly going to be a hardening of attitudes to recovery as they try to ensure that income which is the bare minimum available to them actually does comfy their way. 

    The growing pursuance of care costs debt via courts and bailiffs is illustrative of the direction of travel. 
    So it is unlikely to be given for this year and as such they can demand what they want over the next 9 months based on the Order which was for the whole Council Tax liability for this year. Nothing stopping them looking at our income in total and demanding an amount that ends up clearing the current liability well before next March?
    As for our expenditure directly related to why I was awarded PIP in the first place  was not to be discussed. I was told that I cannot choose what we use our money for. To be frank, they refused point blank to entertain any expenditure including life insurance, house insurance etc. I left their office having to accept that the Council has first call on both our incomes without any reduction for expenses we need to pay.
    I can see your point with them not wanting to cancel the Order but correct me if I am wrong. That Order will cease to have any effect this year or next provided that the Council get their full whack of the current CT that is due by the 31/3/23. In other words they cannot use it for next years liability? They would have to start all over again from scratch.
    It's good to know what they can and can't do and I thank you for your advice. 
  • racyguy
    racyguy Online Community Member Posts: 560 Empowering
    If the liability order is for the current year then yes it will expire. Getting it out of the way earlier will potentially play in your favour though. Debts to local authorities are undoubtedly going to rise. Putting a target on your back for the next financial year by not claiming entitlements and already having had a liability order isn’t going to be the best idea. 
    Yes it is. The order is for the whole of this year's liability which according to the Council is due immediately. So as long as the 2022/23 liability is cleared by the 31/3/23 then the order will cease to have any effect.
    Paying it off early is going to be a marathon task but I will ensure that I start a clean slate next year even if I have to get an overdraft from the bank.
    Budgeting for next year - 23/24 will have to be about £230 a month x 10 months which means with the huge increase in day to day costs by then is a worry that I don't want to think about just yet!
    Finally I do not see why I should be penalised or pressured for not claiming all of our entitlements. As far as I know there is no law that says I must claim these benefits. I don't claim them as the system of maintaining them makes life extremely difficult for me. By making a claim for say CTS is moving that liability somewhere else. At least I am saving the council or the government a minimum of £5000 a year in CT and PC combined?


  • calcotti
    calcotti Online Community Member Posts: 10,001 Championing
    racyguy said: Paying it off early is going to be a marathon task 
    If you can manage it then it will at least be one less outgoing later in the year when you are trying to pay next winter fuel costs.