Welfare benefits news, possible changes & constructive ‘discussion - an ongoing thread
Comments
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Everyone always has a claimant commitment for UC and New style ESA/JSA.WhatThe said:
And a Claimant Commitment for everyone
You're talking about the basic agreement/conditionality always signed for then not another nameWhat you’ve posted above is from 2016 so I don’t understand why you’ve posted them here.0 -
Agreed - let’s try to stick with 2023 news and sources at the very leastpoppy123456 said:
Everyone always has a claimant commitment for UC and New style ESA/JSA.WhatThe said:
And a Claimant Commitment for everyone
You're talking about the basic agreement/conditionality always signed for then not another nameWhat you’ve posted above is from 2016 so I don’t understand why you’ve posted them here.
sometimes scaremongering is hard to avoid and I’m not a fan of liz Kendall myself but politics moves fast and quotes from 2016 from someone whom was never in a position of power 9 years ago is null and void imo1 -
Has there been a defence of sick and disabled from Labour from these latest Tory proposals? The bank account snooping and the changes to requirements for sick people.0
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Can’t disagree with that and spamming the forum on multiple threads with the same information definitely isn’t helping.apple85 said:
Agreed - let’s try to stick with 2023 news and sources at the very leastpoppy123456 said:
Everyone always has a claimant commitment for UC and New style ESA/JSA.WhatThe said:
And a Claimant Commitment for everyone
You're talking about the basic agreement/conditionality always signed for then not another nameWhat you’ve posted above is from 2016 so I don’t understand why you’ve posted them here.
sometimes scaremongering is hard to avoid and I’m not a fan of liz Kendall myself but politics moves fast and quotes from 2016 from someone whom was never in a position of power 9 years ago is null and void imo0 -
On the old bank checking thread before it was closed I mentioned that in terms of the (unconfirmed) reports of the dwp seeking powers to look at means tested benefit claimants bank accounts for monthly checks to catch out fraud - that we’d know more on Wednesday (today)
well that good news is that I’ve found the amendment document which will be presented/discussed in commons today
bad news is Ive only found the haystack………..yet to find the needle
its a large doc and it’s written in politics ‘speech’ so it may take a hr or so in reading time to locate the relevant parts.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-03/0314/amend/datapro_day_rep_1129.pdf
I’ll also repost my post from that old thread on here later as it has some relevant info
can everyone withhold questions for now whilst I try and digest this doc and find the ‘needle’ - I don’t have answers right now but I’m working on it
UPDATE: god that’s a complex doc and I’m not 100% sure on this but I believe the pages we are interested in are pages 120 to 139
but I have noticed that the social security stuff (that’s to do with welfare benefits) is not the only controversial subject in this bill - I’d be surprised if the House of Lords roll through this at top speed
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UPDATE 2: honestly I’m having difficulty understanding what the changes actually are - I know that if the ‘data protection and digital information’ bill passes/gets royal assent than existing bills such as ‘social security administration act 1992) will be amended as well as other existing acts.
I know people on this thread want be to explain things In layman terms (an ‘dummies guide to’ so to speak)
but I’m having trouble ‘translating’ what pages 120-139 means for those of us on means tested benefits and we may either have to wait for a news source to understandably explain things or perhaps another scope member or mod can make sense of those pagesBelow are probably the most reliable new sources I can find but they aren’t up to date and are short on details:
https://www.ukauthority.com/articles/dwp-to-be-allowed-more-checks-on-bank-data/
https://techmonitor.ai/government-computing/data-protection-bill-digital-information-dwp-benefit-claimants
UPDATE 3: I’m reading through the pages 120-139 trying to make sense and I’ve noticed that so far they haven’t specified that any of this (which I’m still unclear if the doc confirms the dwp want to do monthly checks - they haven’t outright said it but noting in the doc is straightforward to understand) will apply to means tested benefit only.
What this means is that whatever this policy turns out to be the gov may be trying to apply it to all types of welfare benefits which in the extreme case may rope in pip claimants and state pension claimants.
as I said I’m having huge trouble understanding and everyone should take much less than a pinch of salt - but if I did understand correct I expect the House of Lords (many who are state pension age) will tear this apart0 -
So to summarise (which is difficult as not a lot is clear)in terms of the rumours of the dwp wanting to do monthly checks the below doc contains the actual amendments the government wants to make:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-03/0314/amend/datapro_day_rep_1129.pdf
part of the ‘data protection and digital information bill’
scroll to pages 120-139
reference number - gov NS1
title/aim - to move the following schedule: ‘power to require information for social security purposes’
summary statement -
As I said it’s not very clear
government is having the 3rd reading of the bill today (29/11/23) and there will be votes on some of the amendments
edit: today is the report stage and the 3rd reading……sorry
if everything passes through (the gov has a 60 majority so I presume it will), the next step should be the House of Lords first reading
i don’t think this will be a quick and straightforward bill to make into law as there are many controversial parts (such as the gov getting powers to help them find out individuals voting preferences) - also I didn’t see them mention ‘AI’ which is the only way they’d be able to carry out half the stuff they want to do)
https://techmonitor.ai/government-computing/dwp-fraud-and-error-ai-is-still-in-its-infancy-civil-servants-tell-govt-committee
https://techmonitor.ai/leadership/digital-transformation/dwp-ai-fraud-bias
much of the whole bill is highly invasive, challenges the right for privacy and therefore human rights as an extension and basically nanny state stuff - once the journalists start reporting on the details I’ll be shocked if their isn’t some sort of backlash on parts of the ‘data protection and digital information bill’0 -
The govs official announcement- still short on details:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changes-to-data-protection-laws-to-unlock-post-brexit-opportunityThe changes include new powers to require data from third parties, particularly banks and financial organisations, to help the UK government reduce benefit fraud and save the taxpayer up to £600 million over the next five years. Currently, Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) can only undertake fraud checks on a claimant on an individual basis, where there is already a suspicion of fraud.
The new proposals would allow regular checks to be carried out on the bank accounts held by benefit claimants to spot increases in their savings which push them over the benefit eligibility threshold, or when people send more time overseas than the benefit rules allow for. This will help identify fraud take action more quickly. To make sure that privacy concerns are at the heart of these new measures, only a minimum amount of data will be accessed and only in instances which show a potential risk of fraud and error.“ or when people send more time overseas than the benefit rules allow for.”
- this doesn’t make 100% to me…
……..is this talking about claimants sending money to individuals abroad (they’d be looking for claimant sending money to relatives but could rope in claimants buying things from an overseas seller…….which imagine many of us has been……..even factoring customs a lot of things are cheaper mailed from abroad than the uk)
………. or is referring to claimants spending more time overseas (those who claim uk benefits but don’t ‘live’ in the uk)……….those claimants who are on holiday (and therefore bank card will show overseas purchase) could be accidentally roped into that
The reason I’m worried is that I’m 99% that stride and the dwp will need ai to carry all this out and in my last post I included links on this subject and bottom line is the the ai that dwp have access to is nowhere near ready to do this and even if it was it’s so controversial and with the dwp’s past data breach’s in mind they could be risking major lawsuits if something goes wrong as they will be looking at 5-10 million individuals bank accounts
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Given the dire history of Government IT projects this will likely be a shambles.0
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https://www.publictechnology.net/2023/11/28/society-and-welfare/dwp-estimates-access-to-benefit-claimants-bank-data-will-lead-to-7400-annual-prosecutions/https://www.bracknellnews.co.uk/news/national/23957528.new-data-powers-could-allow-dwp-snoop-pensioners-bank-accounts/#
edit: a better source than the Bracknell newsHow stupid are the gov if they are actually end up roping in everyone on state pension (ie….everyone over 67-68) into this regular bank surveillance from the dwp
pensioners are a huge outspoken group whom are politically vital to keep on the right side
I’ve already read of many mps and lords against this today (any mp or lord over the age of 65 will also need to share their bank account details to the dwp as you can’t opt out of state pension so if this does happen than that knock on effect would be hilarious)
I think if nothing else if this does come into play all of us will need to be much more aware of what’s going in out accounts and what’s going out (and figure out work around when needed)A lord called prem sikka posted a hugely scaremongering tweet today - I think he may of gotten the extreme end of the stick but family giving claimants money or vica versa to help out may become more problematic under this
moral of the story - physical cash still has value0 -
I would go back to taking my money out in cash each week0 -
But that in itself would be flagged up in theorycarbow32 said:
I would go back to taking my money out in cash each week
https://www.retailbankerinternational.com/news/bank-spying-clause-added-to-data-protection-and-digital-information-bill/?cf-view
https://publiclawproject.org.uk/resources/how-the-new-data-bill-waters-down-protections/Right now it looks like only the independent is reporting all this
i do think if all the major media publishes this that public backlash would be huge and a u-turn would be very possible as this is a massive breach of the ‘right for privacy’ which is once again a human rights issue.
also it sounds like the dwp are ordering the banks to carry out the checks for the them and this may go against the protection that banks promise their customers
I think one of the articles I posted said:
In fact further down the article a minister had the cheek to call it a brexit perk (justed adding to the rejoin argument - not saying if we should or not)
but those 2 banks that are being the Guinea pigs for this in 2025 - if my bank is one of them (and it will only be a matter of time to figure out which 2 bank names) I’m closing my account and moving banks (I’ll try and figure out the 3% that are being skipped if I could)
but I’ll be shocked if there wasn’t a lawsuit at some point at the very least (prehaps the human rights courts may get involved if they believe the right to privacy is human rights) - as I said, let’s see if the House of Lords kick up a fuss and hold things up to post election at the least1 -
I thought it was only going to be means tested too.woodbine said:I'm sorry but I don't buy into this nonsense about pension(ers) being included in any of this as they are not means tested.
If most of this thread were paper at least I could put a match to it.
I didn’t even consider that it was possible that the dwp would target non means tested payments that goes through the dwp such as pip, state pension, even child tax credits
and it’s not me who has reached these conclusions - these are things and concerns that were brought up by mp’s in the House of Commons today and they are valid worries (that the dwp could try and widen the net whom this applies to)
and if by papers you mean newspapers then I did post a link earlier from the independent (sorry I don’t read physical papers nor do I have a scanner)
and yes perhaps the Bracknell news was not the best source but ‘retail banker international’ and ‘publictechnology.net’ seem to use subject specialist journalists who have knowledge in these things
ive tried to stay quiet on this woodbine but on this thread a few times now I feel like you’ve been borderline rude towards the fact that I’m obviously very active in adding content to this thread
I’ve noticed that a lot of the scope community just do basic online searches rather than full blown internet digging (which I do try and do) hence why I created this thread, a space to place all the in-depth research.
id love to have constructive conversations with others on this thread but going by the views I at least hope that I’ve provided some helpful information, explanations and updates amongst the rants
the scope forum has helped me so much in the past answering my questions and I feel like this thread is an (admittedly unasked) way to pay it forward
but if other members reading this thread are ‘bored’ then instead of ‘heckling’ just ask me to let this thread die by itself - I’ll go back to being a member that just asks the questions when I need to figure out something…………it’s much easier to be selfish and look out for number one, I don’t like wasting anyone’s time including my own0 -
A last post as it appears like it would be best to leave this forum for a while
i noticed some forum members saying that they won’t vote in the next general election because they leave in a safe seat
every vote is a person using their voice - and throwing away your voice in a country where democracy is becoming harder to find is a waste.
there is also a huge difference between mp’s with 15k+ majorities (they are overly safe, may not feel like they need to earn votes as their seats are given to them on a platter each election) and less than an 5k majority (their seat, and therefore job is not guaranteed after the current term and said mp will need to work hard to gain new voters and keep the old ones)
so if you live in a safe seat with a bad mp whom takes things for granted then at least you can send a message by reducing their majority if you can’t get rid of them at the nearest GE
my advice would be to vote tactically but if that isn’t possible for whatever reason then don’t throw away your vote but use your vote as a protest vote………vote for the candidate that may serve you best and/or actually gives a **** about people like us…………..even if they have no chance of winning………for any decent candidate every singular vote is important and cherished by them.
so sign up to the vote register and use your vote next general election
don't be selfish in not voting or spoiling your vote but selfishly vote for the best tactical vote for yourself or the best individual candidate on offer as a protest vote3 -
apple85 you have worked very hard on research, thanks. For your own sake, take a break - you deserve it1
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There will always be some people that won't vote and no one can force them to do anything they don't want to do.
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Those reforms are relevant today and do need to be understood!
Scaremongering it is not. Certain peers did their very best to stop this happening. Those changes were delayed, that's all.
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There are quite a lot of pensioners getting or at least entitled to means tested benefits that may get dragged into this.0
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Hi. After yestardays developments does anyone have any idea when these powers will come into force?
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