Had enough of PIP process

Sound

Does anyone know if there is a lawyer who is looking into the appalling state of the PIP ‘assessment’ process? I am a health professional who is beyond disgusted by what PIP has become since it changed from DLA. Once upon a time health professional’s assessment of disability was accepted and 100% of my clients were awarded. Now 100% are declined. I pay my taxes not only for myself but, to help others less fortunate. I do not pay my taxes for people with disability to be treated with utter contempt by a cruel system. I look forward to hearing from anyone who knows of a lawyer please. 

poppy123456

I personally found PIP so much better than DLA. I claimed DLA about 6 months before PIP started and was refused. At the time i didn't know anything different and had no benefits knowledge so i didn't challenge that decision.

I started a claim for PIP as soon as it was introduced in April 2013. I took quite sometime for a decision at the time due to the backlogs but was awarded standard for both parts. My mobility was increased to Enhanced at review in 2016 and been claiming standard daily living and Enhanced mobility since then.

One thing that does stand out here for me is if you're helping your patients with their claims then a health professional such as a GP etc aren't the best people to write letters of support. This is because they don't spend any time with them to know how they wash, dressing, undress, budget, prepare a meal, walk or plan a journey etc. All those that part of the PIP descriptors and what an award is based on. It's not about a diagnosis, it's how those conditions affect you against the 12 PIP activities. If they know then it's because they've been told and this is known as "hearsay." I know i wouldn't even consider asking my GP for a letter of support for this very reason.

The most likely reason for refusal with a lot of people is poorly completed claim forms. Not enough of information is given and if they've given a lot of information it's things that are really relevant.

The best thing you can do is point them in the direction of an advice agency near to them for some expert advice. As for lawyers, you don't need those for a successful PIP award because they are likely to have very little benefits knowledge. 

WhatThe

Sound indeed!

A Med 3 always identified a patient's diagnoses and functional difficulties for a social security claim. Only DWP claimed otherwise.

The 2016 welfare reforms devalued this long-standing medical evidence used to support a claim and now any old pharmacist you've never met can provide a 'statement of fitness to work'

UC is the problem but nobody wants to rein it in so DWP will continue to cause avoidable harm to sick and disabled claimants. 



In his final report on the impact of austerity in the UK, the UN Rapporteur accuses the Government since 2010 of being in a state of denial about the impact of its austerity and welfare reform policies. Professor Alston holds that the UK's welfare safety net has been "deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos"
Major welfare reforms have included the introduction of Universal Credit which has no disability element, PIP that is deliberately designed to reduce disability benefit expenditure by 20%, greater benefit conditionality, and benefit sanctions.

Sound

Poppy123456 clearly has had a unique positive experience. Firstly, I’m not talking about just GPs providing evidence, I’m talking about therapists who know their clients inside out who have sound observation and assessment of the client and disability. 

Poppy123456’s point on poorly completed forms… clients have disability! Could be a combination of visual, cognitive, physical. Yet, they are supposed to traverse the system by finding someone to help them?? Huh?? I go back to my point, as therapists actually working with the client WE KNOW THEM better than someone in an agency. 

I am currently consulting with a lawyer specifically for a client and indeed there are many lawyers out there in large companies who deal with benefits. However, that’s on a private basis and expensive. I’m looking for a gutsy lawyer who is addressing or confronting the system from a Human Rights/common decency perspective. 

Sound

A doctor for the DWP told me years ago that “if you can move your little finger then you’re considered fit to work”. 🥲🥲🥲Never mind that the reality of the work force out there is that there are few companies that will make reasonable adjustment for existing employees let alone job seekers with disability. 

Jimm_Scope

While I have also had a bad experience with PIP assessments and the DWP in general, we must remember that many of the workers and employees at the DWP and connected agencies are not responsible for the processes they must carry out. 

I indeed needed help filling out the form, my hand cramped quite a bit writing it out. I would much prefer an online process and computer submission but that is not available. I am sure some people have okay experiences with getting PIP, that does not invalidate all the difficulties that many have. Nor does many people having difficulties mean that good experiences rarely exist. Generalisations do not often help the issue in either direction. I know there's a lot of frustration and emotions around PIP and the DWP, I feel it myself, that frustration should be directed at the people who put the processes that are so difficult in place.

Sound

I agree Jimm_Scope. The problem is the top tier management system. What the PIP system has also done is, employ experienced clinicians by offering healthy salaries and bonuses, thus taking them away from much needed clinical settings. It’s a lose/lose for those with disability, as far as I can see. Certainly, those clinicians I know who worked for PIP didn’t stay long. The role was morally challenging and did not meet what they were trained to do i.e. care and utilise the length and breadth of their clinical skills. 

WhatThe

 ..employ experienced clinicians by offering healthy salaries and bonuses, thus taking them away from much needed clinical settings. Good point. I've not considered that. 

There's no longer Legal Aid funding for benefits cases (not an accident)

The current health assessments are a red herring but the contracts awarded run to billions

This is about policy such as 'reducing the disability-employment gap' 'helping people get back into work' and, wait for it...'cutting the benefits bill'

Sound

WhatThe couldn’t agree more. For the handful of people who cheat the system, so what? The need is greater for those with disability and as a tax payer I have no objection whatsoever. In my 30 plus years of working, I’ve only ever known 2 clients who were swinging the lead. An experienced clinician can see it immediately and actually, it was so blatant that I felt sorry for them. However, all other clients have been in genuine need. Nowadays they not only miss out on valuable clinical skills as services are cut evermore but, they also have to suffer the stress and indignity of trying to jump through a business/marketing driven system which seeks to give them nothing and in fact rewards their staff with bonuses or penalises them if they award too many claimants. 

WhatThe

Rewards for failure, yes. I don't know what the solution is but it's lovely to hear that you care so much, thank you!

OverlyAnxious

Jimm_Scope said:

I indeed needed help filling out the form, my hand cramped quite a bit writing it out. I would much prefer an online process and computer submission but that is not available.

It's perfectly acceptable to type your answers to the PIP form and print them off.

Just remember to put your name & NI number on each page, as well as clearly stating which question each answer relates to.

WhatThe

...I’m looking for a gutsy lawyer who is addressing or confronting the system from a Human Rights/common decency perspective. 

This is from CPAG -

HOW YOU CAN GET INVOLVED

SUBMIT REPORTS TO THE EARLY WARNING SYSTEM

If you or any of your colleagues work with individuals and families who have been affected by changes to the benefit system, and you think that someone needs to know about their experience, then you should get involved.

Use the EWS report form to tell us about your case. We only ask for basic details and your client remains anonymous throughout.

If you would like to talk to us directly about your client’s experiences or discuss any aspect of the Early Warning System, please call Kelly-Marie Jones on 020 7812 5226 or email ews@cpag.org.uk

 

Sound

Thank you so much I’ll be in touch next week. 

LWG

@Jimm_Scope I applied for PIP in May and was asked if I was happy to do the application online. It's new and in beta phase. I was more than happy as I always prefer to use the computer for everything. I could upload evidence at any point after submitting my application form up until my assessment.  

surfygoose

I wouldn’t say that it’s the case that PIP do not listen to any health professionals at all. I acknowledge that people will have had different experiences and perhaps that depends on the assessor. Also I think, like others have mentioned before, it would depend if the health professional is able to prove that they have a full understanding of the claimants day to day life and exactly how their condition effects them. Personally the PIP people have always accepted letters from my psychiatrist, social worker and care home manager or any care or support plans that they hold about me and we have sent in, they have accepted them as being clear evidence of how my condition affects me, or phoned them to confirm I am under their care and asked any questions. I think for example if I asked my nurse who gives me my injection to write to PIP then that would not count for my claim because they don’t know anything other than my injection, but a healthcare professional that is involved in arranging your care would be ok, so I guess it would be different for everyone depending if they have a healthcare professional who has that much involvement with their life.

chiarieds

I sort of stand on both sides of the fence....I'm a long retired physio, so know that Health Care Professionals (HCPs) understand many disorders (altho they're often much maligned). PIP is so different to DLA, as it's an assessment of a person's functional ability. In a way I think that's good, as so many people don't have a diagnosis/are undergoing tests to identify their problem(s)/find it difficult to see, or even talk to their GP, or any specialist, etc. 

Others find PIP poor, & think that having a Dr to evaluate them would be fine, or that they should wait to have an assessment with a HCP who understood their disorder. My argument against that is that some would be waiting a very long time to find a HCP that did understand often the complexity of a claimant's problems (mine included), & the PIP process can unfortunately take some time anyway. 

Altho I found DLA easier than PIP (tho had to go to a tribunal for DLA), & when having to move over to PIP my GP offered to write me a supportive letter, which 'may' have been helpful, as he could see the physical problems I have (partially dropped R wrist, permanently partially dislocated R collarbone), I have to otherwise agree with poppy that usually a GP's letter can't possibly indicate the problems a person has with dressing, cooking, using the bathroom, etc.

No system is perfect, but with apologies as I've said all of the above before on the forum, we should work with what we've got, help people understand the PIP descriptors, & how best to convey the difficulties they face, such as understanding how to complete their claim forms, & how important their own 'evidence' is. This is what I feel this forum truly tries to do.

Biblioklept

Sound said:

Firstly, I’m not talking about just GPs providing evidence, I’m talking about therapists who know their clients inside out who have sound observation and assessment of the client and disability. 

...
 I go back to my point, as therapists actually working with the client WE KNOW THEM better than someone in an agency. 

I just wanted to add that people forget that while a therapist or medical professional treating someone will know them better than a 30 minute assessor, it doesn't mean they know or understand the PIP descriptors or what they're assessing them against. 

Biblioklept

Also if we went back to relying solely on medical evidence people like me who are unable to engage with services and medical support would completely fall through the cracks. 

poppy123456

Biblioklept said:

Also if we went back to relying solely on medical evidence people like me who are unable to engage with services and medical support would completely fall through the cracks. 

I couldn’t agree more with that! The same applies to me. I don’t see any medical professionals anymore and haven’t for about 7 years. 

I would also like to add that I can’t see how a therapist will know anything about how a persons conditions affect them with the PIP descriptors either, in the same way as a GP. The only person that really knows how you’re affected is yourself. 

Sound

I will continue to fight for the many many clients who despite providing sufficient evidence on their applications forms are turned down and I will stand by my view that PIP is a cruel process for the most disabled of individuals. 

WhatThe

Yes because what is a health assessment without medical evidence?

PIP is set to become the disability benefit for future-proof entitlement so it is here to stay

It is the administrative procedures which are the problem such as treating a new claim form as new entitlement under new rules