PIP, DLA and AA
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pip tribunal won then bad news

shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
hi all.. after 14months of wait we won tribunal on 9th this month..stressfull isnt the word we been through..so we was happy we won but then.... dwp say they are appealing the tribunal an asking for statemnt of reason from tribunal..
we are dumbstruck as thought thats it at tribunal and get all backpay back ...
anybody here at all had this happen to them plzz
does this mean we might lose benefit altogether an go through stress of starting again
any help plzzz would be nice
thanks

Replies

  • lindadeniselindadenise Member Posts: 302 Pioneering
    DWP ask for statement of reasons but they can only appeal if they find a error of law. I hope that helps.
    Goodluck
  • markyboymarkyboy Member Posts: 368 Pioneering
    They cannot say yet that they are appealing it's to early they are only asking for a statement of reasons but unless they can find a error of law they cannot appeal
    Just hang in there and think the longer they drag it out the more back pay you will get
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    thanks people for help..
    but what is a error in law, surely a judge cant make a error
    i just hope they dont appeal then..will keeep u updated
    thanks
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It can and does happen. DWP have as much right to appeal the decision as we do. It can take 8 weeks to pay you any backdated money.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • Barney18Barney18 Member Posts: 7 Listener
    Hi Shazzer5, I would try not to worry. 

    I was in this position recently and nearly lost my mind with the stress and second guessing everything. I spent weeks calling the tribunal service trying to hurry the judge up with providing the statement of reasons, which took a few months in the end. Once the DWP had the statement of reasons they made the payment really quickly. I think they ask for this to see the reasons people have been given an award and make sure it’s correct, which is nearly always going to be the case following a tribunal. 

    Hang in there, you will get it sorted, it’s just going to take a bit longer than originally thought :) 
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    Hi barney.
    thanks for yr info..it is very stressful .making people wait longer than they should have too .
    hope we don't have to wait months for judge .i too will keep ringing them .
    hopefully all turn out good in end.
    ty again
  • teejays1617teejays1617 Member Posts: 92 Courageous
    Hi Shazzer 
                       I agree with most of the fellow readers that even though they might try to appeal the tribunal if medical professionals have backed up your evidence of
    illnesses and disabilities ,the judge that decided you won the tribunal will not change his decision . Hang on in there . I believe with fellow readers that you will win. Lets hope so  
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    Update...
    dwp have sent sor to tribunal which they received on 14 Jan..
    how long we Gotta wait now till judge sends back to dwp ..do judge have time limit to send bk sor to dwp..
    any help on this 
    thanks
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Do you mean the DWP have requested the SOR? DWP can't send the SOR to the Tribunal because it comes from them. If this is what you mean then DWP have 1 month to request it, there's no time scales for HMCTS to respond and send it.

    I really wouldn't worry at this stage as advised, they've just requested the SOR. Payments can take 8 weeks after a Tribunal win.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    Hi poppy yes that what i meant.
    Just so annoying we gotta wait till dwp recieve sor .then wait for them to decide if they taking further after reading sor.
    Thanks
  • CazannCazann Member Posts: 88 Pioneering
    Hi shazzer. I am pleased that you have won your appeal after all that waiting. I'm sure that it will sort itself out and you will get your award.
    I am going to my tribunal tomorrow afternoon and to say that I'm nervous is an understatement. How did yours go and if you don't mind me asking,what sort of questions did they ask you?
    Thanks for any info. xx
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    Cazann hi
    It was ok.obviously stressfull.
    They were very nice people only 3 at table.
    They ask questions about the assesment parts.an was question from back to oct 2017 not about how i am now.
    Good luck for tomoz
  • shazzer5shazzer5 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    Cazann said:
    Hi shazzer. I am pleased that you have won your appeal after all that waiting. I'm sure that it will sort itself out and you will get your award.
    I am going to my tribunal tomorrow afternoon and to say that I'm nervous is an understatement. How did yours go and if you don't mind me asking,what sort of questions did they ask you?
    Thanks for any info. xx
    Hi cazann how u get on
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    tribunal refused my PIP .said although i have conditions listed -they do not affect my limitations.Scored zero points.which i am certain they took from assessor report-niot what they were told on the day.
    i use aids to dress ,take meds,eat=open cans jars etc,to get around thev house-grab rails,cant get out of the bath,have carer who washes and dries my hair,prepares meals,makes cup of tea.cant use my oven safely-confusion over rin gs-several fires and one major housefire as a result of leaving pans unattended-thru distraction-not turning ring off and leaving oven on when out,cannit walk without pain stiffness fatigue breathlessness and abdominal pain back pain -need to keep stopping to rest.cant do housework-use long handled brushes etc,long handled poop scoop.aid to clean myself as cant reach,cant cut toe nails,have RA in hands -cant hold anything for long -ie pen or walking stick.
    on self test and by AGEUK and CAB ,I was scored 24 points for care and 22 for mobility,i have been on IB/ESA and DLA since 1998 -ill since 1994.dont suddenly get better justv because they decide i am not entitled to PIP based on lies told by assessor.have got worse since 2009.
    said only step is upper tribunal if there is an "error in law" -what is "an error in law"?
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    shazzer5 said:
    Cazann hi
    It was ok.obviously stressfull.
    They were very nice people only 3 at table.
    They ask questions about the assesment parts.an was question from back to oct 2017 not about how i am now.
    Good luck for tomoz

    my dla was stoipped in oct 2017,tribunal stated they were only interested up to that date-but interrogated like a criminal-asked re after this time-dids not refer to the lies and **** in the assessor report-nor accept anything i told them -asked ridsiculous questions like "why is the photo on your travel permit an old one"?I said it was not-it is how my face has changed due to my conditiions.


  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    @rainbow58 you need to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings from HMCTS and take both of these to an advice centre near you. If no error in law is found then you won't be able to appeal the decision.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger

    What is an Error of Law?

    When appealing a Tribunal Decision to the Upper Tribunal, you need to show that there has been an Error of Law.

    Commissioners Decision R(A)1/72 states that there is an error of law if:

    1. The decision contains a false statement about the law e.g. they got the law wrong or misinterpreted it. 
    2. The decision made is supported by no evidence 
    3. The facts found are such that no person acting judicially and properly instructed as to the relevant law could have come to the determination in question (a perverse decision).
    4. There has been a breach of natural justice, i.e. the procedure followed leads to unfairness.
    5. The tribunal did not give proper findings of fact or provide adequate reasons for its decision. There must be sufficient reasons so that you can see why it reached the decision it did.

    “The minimum requirement must at least be that the claimant, looking at the decision, should be able to discern on the face of it why the evidence has failed to satisfy the authority”

    See also R(I)14/75 which states that a decision would be wrong in law if it was in breach of the requirements of natural justice or failed to state adequate reasons.


    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    @rainbow58 you need to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings from HMCTS and take both of these to an advice centre near you. If no error in law is found then you won't be able to appeal the decision.
    i have done that -AGEUK forwarded m e a letter to send-a week will have gone by of the month they give you to appeal -got the letter two days after it was dated and now a bank holiday-the CAB not open til wednesday and i won t get an appt straightaway-by the time i receive the SOR etc -most of the month will be gone,feel it is deliberate not to pay me 20 months backdated PIP.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected

    What is an Error of Law?

    When appealing a Tribunal Decision to the Upper Tribunal, you need to show that there has been an Error of Law.

    Commissioners Decision R(A)1/72 states that there is an error of law if:

    1. The decision contains a false statement about the law e.g. they got the law wrong or misinterpreted it. 
    2. The decision made is supported by no evidence 
    3. The facts found are such that no person acting judicially and properly instructed as to the relevant law could have come to the determination in question (a perverse decision).
    4. There has been a breach of natural justice, i.e. the procedure followed leads to unfairness.
    5. The tribunal did not give proper findings of fact or provide adequate reasons for its decision. There must be sufficient reasons so that you can see why it reached the decision it did.

    “The minimum requirement must at least be that the claimant, looking at the decision, should be able to discern on the face of it why the evidence has failed to satisfy the authority”

    See also R(I)14/75 which states that a decision would be wrong in law if it was in breach of the requirements of natural justice or failed to state adequate reasons.


    what is all this in plain english-they clearly did not accept anything I nor AGEUK /the CAB told them.According to the PIP test -as per AGEUK and CAB-I scored 24 for care and 22 for mobility,I told them I cannot plan or undertake unfamiliar journeys as cause panic attacks -rely on others to take me -ie hospital appts .Cant walk 20-50 metres without pain breathlessness stiffness fatigue abdominal pain.To say that they recognise I have my conditions but not how my conditions affect me as has been the case for the last 21 years with the DWP-IB/ESA/DLA.is unacceptable,
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.
    thank you for that
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    rainbow58 said:
    You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.
    thank you for that
    will CAB be able to recognise what is an error of law?
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    I have no idea if they will or not.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    All you can do is ask, but it is quite specialised
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    @rainbow58

    You can make a new claim for PIP at any time.  Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to claiming PIP.  They have a draft diary you can adapt.  Include a 7 day diary in table form that sets out your daily activities, how long the take, if you can complete them, and the aids you use.  Often claims fail because the presentation is weak.  You have to qualify for points at least 50% of the time, at least 4 days out of 7.  Don't underestimate your disabilities.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    i did all this on my original PIP claim form -my claim failed as did many many others because the assessors lied in their reports and put their own interpretation of things-claimed to "observe things they did not or could possibly not have seen".The PIP self (points)test states specifically what you score points for -not how many days -nor how often or how long it takes to walk 20 metres but whether one can walk 20 metres without pain  and fatigue,whether one uses aids, can prepare a meal using a microwave not oven,i use aids for getting out of bed,getting about,getting dressed ,taking meds ,eating,washing,toileting every day of the week.i cannot bend to wash my feet cut my toe nails,cannot prepare fresh vegs for meals-my carer does that.I dont socialise or engage with people every day as the assessor claimed -she engages with people every day-postmen,gp receptionists,shop assistants.I rarely go out-who talks to their postmen every day,?go to the doctors every day?I have to get my head ingear  mentally to go to the shops which is never more than once a week,
    the assessor wrongly claimed to "observe me sort through pspers laid on the floor from a seated positiion" and applied that to every activity even though it was false and could not be applied to certain activities,.He did not observe it because it never took place-I was sat at a table with my chair right up to the table facing the assessor the whole time trying to focus on what was being asked,The only papers i had were in my bag next to me on the table -i did not even get them out.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    rainbow58 said:
    You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.
    thank you for that
    am certain it said one month to appeal-will need to cgeck -have put the letter out of sight -out of mind,
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Your disabilities have to fit certain descriptors and apply at least 50% of the time.  Have a look at the list of descriptors on the Disability Rights UK site.  Try to get some help from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

    I got standard both components after assessment and enhanced both components after appeal.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    It won't be about what the assessors think or did because the Tribunal will have looked at all of that, including the evidence you sent to support your claim. I'm afraid you won't know anything until you receive the SOR and find someone to have a look through it to see if there's an error in law.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    It might be, rainbow, that you didn't show the tribunal that your disabilities comply with enough descriptors and apply 50% of the time or more.  Believe me, you won't score enough points to qualify for PIP unless your claim meets these criteria.

    If you do make a new claim, try to get some f2f advice from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
    they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
    what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
    what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    rainbow58 said:
    I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
    For a start it matters not if a Tribunal asks a question that to you, me and others appears to be at odds to what the descriptors say. Asking questions in a roundabout sort of way may well give them the answer to what they are seeking far better than asking a direct question based on the descriptors. For example if asked how long can you walk reliably, any answer over 1 minute would tell the panel that at a minimum you could walk 25 metres.
    As for aids that have not been supplied or recommended by the medical/social professions could suggest that you use them out of choice and not out of need.
    If both AgeUK and the CAB told you that you may well win the lottery if you use all odd numbers starting at 11 what would you say? The same goes for their advice on the points. Only the Tribunal and the DWP can award points which may or may not be in line with what you have been told previously.


    they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
    Drawing comparisons as to what complied with DLA/IB/ or ESA is ridiculous. PIP is what it is and has a totally different set of rules. descriptors  and criteria.
    As an example I have had the DWP assess and re-assess me many times in respect of a reduction in mental health capacity. In every case they have agreed that I have lost 40% of what a 'normal' individual has. So much so that 5 years ago they made the award 'for life'. However for PIP they have concluded in all of my assessments & re-assessments that I do not have any problems with my mental health. Why? Because each benefit assesses the condition in a different way.

    what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
    what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,
    As I have said above there are many ways of getting at the point if any descriptors fit your impact. Some questions may not seem relevant. 
    I have tried to point you in the right direction with some of points that you have mentioned
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Giving just a time for how long you can walk might suggest you can walk farther than in fact you can.  Always give time and distance - it takes you X minutes or seconds to walk Ymeters.  Don't let them lead you into saying you can walk farther than in fact you can.  And of course you might be able to walk for five minutes but this might have to include two stops of two minutes each.  Spell it out for them or they are likely to make up their own minds to your disadvantage.

    If you can't walk farther than 20m without needing to stop and rest because of pain , stiffness or fatigue, keep insisting that is the case.

    Points are awarded for how your medical conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

    PIP has different rules to ESA. What might pass for one won't necessarily pass for the other.

    I was asked if someone else recommended that I use aids and I replied that I decided myself I needed them.  People are capable of deciding for themselves if they need aids.

    You might have been unlucky in getting a particularly difficult panel - some are though most are reasonable.


  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    twonker said:
    rainbow58 said:
    I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
    For a start it matters not if a Tribunal asks a question that to you, me and others appears to be at odds to what the descriptors say. Asking questions in a roundabout sort of way may well give them the answer to what they are seeking far better than asking a direct question based on the descriptors. For example if asked how long can you walk reliably, any answer over 1 minute would tell the panel that at a minimum you could walk 25 metres.
    As for aids that have not been supplied or recommended by the medical/social professions could suggest that you use them out of choice and not out of need.
    If both AgeUK and the CAB told you that you may well win the lottery if you use all odd numbers starting at 11 what would you say? The same goes for their advice on the points. Only the Tribunal and the DWP can award points which may or may not be in line with what you have been told previously.


    they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
    Drawing comparisons as to what complied with DLA/IB/ or ESA is ridiculous. PIP is what it is and has a totally different set of rules. descriptors  and criteria.
    As an example I have had the DWP assess and re-assess me many times in respect of a reduction in mental health capacity. In every case they have agreed that I have lost 40% of what a 'normal' individual has. So much so that 5 years ago they made the award 'for life'. However for PIP they have concluded in all of my assessments & re-assessments that I do not have any problems with my mental health. Why? Because each benefit assesses the condition in a different way.

    what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
    what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,
    As I have said above there are many ways of getting at the point if any descriptors fit your impact. Some questions may not seem relevant. 
    I have tried to point you in the right direction with some of points that you have mentioned
    no you are just ststing your opinion,.everyone knows what lying conniving b..the assessors are,and no PIP is not entirely a different benefit the descriptors are the same as for DLA and some for ESA,I cant walk across the road without pain fatigue breathlessness and always use a walking stick -they were told that i needed to stop and rest several times for pain fatigue etc and as i have no awarness of time or distance I cant say how long it will take as each day is different,The descriptors are the same as for DLA -I answered the same questions on ESA claim form which were accepted .
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    DLA and PIP are different benefits, i'm sorry to say and DLA didn't have descriptors.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:

    They like to use all the buzz words but all that does is flag up to the assessor that you didn't fill the form in yourself. 
    Which is a bad thing?

    On the other hand if someone fills out their own PIP2 with no help or advice they are likely to not understand fully the descriptors and/or fail to make it clear exactly how the impact they have matches the relevant descriptors - thus enabling the DWP to give no award due to an incomplete claim form!

    You just can't win it seems.
  • emilyjane15emilyjane15 Member Posts: 18 Listener
    I can't believe how people have to lose any dignity they have left telling these people details of stuff we wish to be private just like people who don't have disabilities.
    I mean if disabled people have to declare whether they can wipe there own bums or need to wear nappies because they are incontinent for money which isn't that much but needed. Then so should people with no disabilities to the work place. It's not right. I mean ticking a box saying you can't hold your bladder anymore is one thing but having to go into detail to a bunch of strangers to be given zero at the end is outrageous and degrading.
    Sorry to jump on this thread but I've read story after story of what disabled people are having to go through just to have money to exist and existing is all that is happening and by a thread 
    If disabled people have to declare such very personal detail then so should the non disabled to the work place. I mean I'm sure mcdonalds would want to make sure people can wipe there back side properly before handling food .
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Regardless of the quality of the claim form, some people are just very bad at presenting their case orally.  So, in such cases the written evidence needs to be very strong.

     In my tribunal award letter (the judge's letter) it said that I was 'cogent' - which of course must have helped me win my appeal.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:




    It a bad thing because it is often grossly overstated and lulls vulnerable people who place their trust in CAB that they will A. get an award or B. get a higher rate than they are entitled to.

    It is better to fill in a form badly and come to face to face, that it is too grossly overstate on a form then turn up and look better than your form claims you are. The DWP do not withhold awards just because the form is not filled out well. Not at all! All that means is that the person is more likely to be seen at face to face. 

    It is blindly obvious because often people turn up, CAB having claimed restrictions in so many activities, then its clear they don't even know what their form says and it leads to huge inconsistencies in their ability, which leads to no award. If you look like you are lying then it doesn't bode well. 
    So in a way You are suggesting that claimants should not see a welfare rights organisation but should instead struggle through filling out the forms not giving very much relevant information and trusting that an assessor will do a complete, correct and consistent assessment?

    I actually fall into that category in that I have never sought advice or help in filling out the claim forms, struggled and failed to get everything across on the forms, had assessors  that made up things that never happened reported what I was supposed to have said but didn't and concluded that contrary to my reports etc that there was nothing wrong with me!

    And then am told that I must have had two poor quality assessors but never mind they all can't be perfect!
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:

    Unfortunately, it’s only by exploring the finer details does one understand the greater level of disability. 

    Just ticking a box to say yes, does not mean it is true and doesn’t give enough detail. 

    E.g there is a difference between someone who has stress incontinence from childbirth who can manage with a Tena lady and complete urinary incontinence requiring full incontinence pads. 

    It’s not nice but unfortunately it has to be done. A lot of people rely on 2 points in A 1, 4, 5 & 6 to gain a standard award so by not discussing Toilet needs, 2 vital points could be missed. 
    Do you seriously suggest that taking mental health matters you are expecting the claimant to go into the finer details of what caused the issue and how you are today?
     If that is the case you are in danger of undoing all of the work that has gone on in trying to make the claimant look to the future only and to ignore the past history. Personally no matter what an assessor does in this regard I will not for my own sanity want to discuss that depth of information as I know full well how with dragging it all up it will affect me.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2019
    @twanker - it seems that you are very critical of @ilovecats comments (who, obviously, can speak for his/ herself) and you seem to be against both filling out the form yourself, getting help to fill it in and 'going into the finer details' at a face to face interview.

     Do you have any positive advice for anyone just about to start a claim for PIP?
  • ThreesticksThreesticks Member Posts: 128 Pioneering
    I sit here in disbelief, the infighting and helping the DWP is astounding. If I didn't know better I'd have said there were trolls who work for the DWP answering your questions. The DWP, and their agents, ( i.e. atos et al ) must be so desperate to make big profits out of you. And you lot are helping them.

    My advice, get as much independent information as possible. There are websites out there full of links and information to help you. All I read on here is, opinions, assumptions and personal attacks, with the odd useful link thrown in. I'm very disappointed, but I must say, not surprised.
    If you fight, you won't always win. But if you don't fight you will always always lose.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    @ilovecats - I genuinely think advice on filling in the form vs someone else doing it would be useful...I'll make another topic as we've all gone a bit off-topic here...
  • April2018momApril2018mom Posts: 2,869 Member
    I think it’s a good idea. I could write a letter to complain about the paperwork but that is not recommended. In other words it’s a exercise in torture and negativity. 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    Disability Rights UK and CAB sites both have good guides to completing PIP forms.  Disability Rights include a draft diary you can adapt.  Recommend people include a 7 day diary with their PIP form.  My tribunal panel based most of their questions on my diary.  They awarded me enhanced both components.  Diary shows what your daily life and disability problems are.  CAB make the point that you should not tick the 'it varies' box in the getting around section but tick a specific distance box.  Ticking the 'it varies' box gives assessor too much scope to decide that much of the time you can walk a long distance! 
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    Matilda said:
    CAB make the point that you should not tick the 'it varies' box in the getting around section but tick a specific distance box.  Ticking the 'it varies' box gives assessor too much scope to decide that much of the time you can walk a long distance! 
    Wrong? for telling the truth and as it is?

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    twonker said:
    Matilda said:
    CAB make the point that you should not tick the 'it varies' box in the getting around section but tick a specific distance box.  Ticking the 'it varies' box gives assessor too much scope to decide that much of the time you can walk a long distance! 
    Wrong? for telling the truth and as it is?

    @twonker - most, if not all, of your posts just contradict what others advise.

    You seem to have a lot of experience of the PIP process. Do you have any positive advice for claimants?
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2019
    The point is, @twonker, assessors are notorious for twisting the facts.  If this were not the case, then 71% of appeals would not succeed.  
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    ilovecats said:
    cristobal said:
    @twanker - it seems that you are very critical of @ilovecats comments (who, obviously, can speak for his/ herself) and you seem to be against both filling out the form yourself, getting help to fill it in and 'going into the finer details' at a face to face interview.

     Do you have any positive advice for anyone just about to start a claim for PIP?
    Unfortunately I fear that Twonker/Yadnad has little positive advice for anyone. 

    To clarify, a claimant does not have to talk in depth about what terrible things they have gone through, just explain how it affects them today. 

    Back to the Activity 5 point, you cannot just expect the assessor to say, ‘Oh I see you’ve ticked the box to say you have incontinence, here have 2 points’. 
    Otherwise everyone would tick it.
    I would refer you to your earlier post in which you said, 'unfortunately, it’s only by exploring the finer details does one understand the greater level of disability'
    Maybe I am missing the point, but the finer details would be those details that the claimant probably doesn't want to be brought back up to the surface?

    Plus you stated that you would sooner have a badly completed claim form that was completed by the claimant than one that was completed at a meeting with a welfare rights organisation?

    All I am trying to do is gather concrete and consistent advice regarding what I should be doing when my review comes up next May and how I should handle the face to face assessment that will follow.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    cristobal said:
    @twanker - it seems that you are very critical of @ilovecats comments (who, obviously, can speak for his/ herself) and you seem to be against both filling out the form yourself, getting help to fill it in and 'going into the finer details' at a face to face interview.

     Do you have any positive advice for anyone just about to start a claim for PIP?


    I'm not against anything. I have read that Ilovecats (as an assessor) would prefer to have, if she was carrying out my assessment, a poorly completed PIP2 claim form than one that was completed at a meeting with a Welfare Rights organisation. She is of the opinion that the latter will generally result in an automatic face to face assessment.

    All I want to know is what I should do with the PIP2 form next May 
    Is it better to go see the CAB and get help filling it out or struggle on my own with no help or advice sought? 
  • CockneyRebelCockneyRebel Member Posts: 5,257 Disability Gamechanger
    Whether you have a PIP2 form or an AR1, either should be filled in as a new claim, and submitted with any relevant supporting evidence.
    It is your claim, and unless you are physically unable to fill in a form, then the expert on your conditions and effects that occur is you. You have plenty of time to research the descriptors and criteria but if they are unclear then you should seek clarification. Nobody can tell your story better than you, you do not have to write an award winning text book but you do have to paint the clearest picture of your life so that the assessor understands your needs
    Be all you can be, make  every day count. Namaste
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Whether you have a PIP2 form or an AR1, either should be filled in as a new claim, and submitted with any relevant supporting evidence.
    It is your claim, and unless you are physically unable to fill in a form, then the expert on your conditions and effects that occur is you. You have plenty of time to research the descriptors and criteria but if they are unclear then you should seek clarification. Nobody can tell your story better than you, you do not have to write an award winning text book but you do have to paint the clearest picture of your life so that the assessor understands your needs
    what is a PIP2 form and an AR1 form?
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    rainbow58 said:
    Whether you have a PIP2 form or an AR1, either should be filled in as a new claim, and submitted with any relevant supporting evidence.
    It is your claim, and unless you are physically unable to fill in a form, then the expert on your conditions and effects that occur is you. You have plenty of time to research the descriptors and criteria but if they are unclear then you should seek clarification. Nobody can tell your story better than you, you do not have to write an award winning text book but you do have to paint the clearest picture of your life so that the assessor understands your needs
    what is a PIP2 form and an AR1 form?I  am unlikely to get any supporting evidence as the GP i had has just retired and  has not been fully supportive,he said my hand Xrays showed RA but denied telling me this saying it was osteoarthritis.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    rainbow58 said:

    what is a PIP2 form and an AR1 form?
    PIP2 is the form you filled out when you first applied and the AR1 is a review form.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    ilovecats said:
    cristobal said:
    @twanker - it seems that you are very critical of @ilovecats comments (who, obviously, can speak for his/ herself) and you seem to be against both filling out the form yourself, getting help to fill it in and 'going into the finer details' at a face to face interview.

     Do you have any positive advice for anyone just about to start a claim for PIP?
    Unfortunately I fear that Twonker/Yadnad has little positive advice for anyone. 

    To clarify, a claimant does not have to talk in depth about what terrible things they have gone through, just explain how it affects them today. 

    Back to the Activity 5 point, you cannot just expect the assessor to say, ‘Oh I see you’ve ticked the box to say you have incontinence, here have 2 points’. 
    Otherwise everyone would tick it.
    why not that is the truth-the PIP test scores points for using aids -not where they are obtained from.nor how long it takes one to walk a distance but how far one can walk with or withput an aid and the pain etc exoerienced.
    same as "cannot make an unfamiliar journey without another person or aid"-they ewere told this but chose to ignore it.i have not "gone to unfamiliar places "as it causes great distress and panic attacks.have had to rely on dsomeone to take me,i am not going to my nieces wedding because the "journey to an unfamiliar place " will cause me great distress.
    I have my meals prepared for me to heat in the microiwave cos i cannot safely use an oven.that scores points niot how often i have a carer,who also washes and dries my hair,washes my back.-point scorers.as is "unable to get in or out of a bath unaided -" 3 points.not whether i should get a carer to help me out of the bath.as the judge stated.i have my nails cut because i cannot bend down or reach to do so.
    I go out  once a week which amounts to at a maximum of 52 days a year i go out-that is less thanthe 50% they state,
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    The PIP self test is good, if you understand the descriptors and what they mean. A lot of people don't understand them and will use the self test and hugely over score their self and automatically think they qualify when some don't.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    In my experience, assessors and tribunals like to keep things simple.  At my tribunal, the doc kept asking for how long could I walk and I kept replying that it depends on a lot of factors.  So, he dropped that and went on to how far.  He was only interested in how far itself, not on factors like pain, stiffness, fatigue, pavements, kerbs.

    If assessors and tribunals want to keep things simple, so should we (without excluding essential details) or otherwise they're likely to get confused and err on the side of awarding few or no points.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    The PIP self test is good, if you understand the descriptors and what they mean. A lot of people don't understand them and will use the self test and hugely over score their self and automatically think they qualify when some don't.
    both AGEUK and the CAB did the PIP self test and scored me 24 points for care and 22 for mobility.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Matilda said:
    In my experience, assessors and tribunals like to keep things simple.  At my tribunal, the doc kept asking for how long could I walk and I kept replying that it depends on a lot of factors.  So, he dropped that and went on to how far.  He was only interested in how far itself, not on factors like pain, stiffness, fatigue, pavements, kerbs.

    If assessors and tribunals want to keep things simple, so should we (without excluding essential details) or otherwise they're likely to get confused and err on the side of awarding few or no points.
    if they want to keep things simple why spend 2 hours interrogating.if the assessors want to keep things simple why was mine typing lengthy responses to my short or single word or non existent responses-why make up the **** he did and why lie?
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    cristobal said:
    twonker said:
    Matilda said:
    CAB make the point that you should not tick the 'it varies' box in the getting around section but tick a specific distance box.  Ticking the 'it varies' box gives assessor too much scope to decide that much of the time you can walk a long distance! 
    Wrong? for telling the truth and as it is?

    @twonker - most, if not all, of your posts just contradict what others advise.

    You seem to have a lot of experience of the PIP process. Do you have any positive advice for claimants?
    You are not supposed to exaggerate difficulties on a PIP claim form. Telling the assessor/DWP that those difficulties never vary and allowing them to think that the difficulties exist 24/7 is plainly wrong.

    Yes is the answer to that question, Up to now I am looking forward to my 4th re-assessment in 12 months time.so have plenty of experience of the system.
    Unfortunately the system has a nasty habit of letting me down.
    Positive advice? Possibly prepare yourself to have an assessors report that is full of in accuracies and incorrect assumptions. Be prepared to fight the DWP. Don't get stressed and don't feel intimidated.
    Last of all prepare to not be believed at every stage of the process.

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger

    @rainbow58 - I think @poppy123456 offers good advice about the self test/ knowledge of the descriptors is sound. Some things that you might think are included aren’t.

    Reading your earlier post there are a couple of things that you might explain why AgeUK/CAB think you should have been awarded points when you haven’t….

    Being unable to use an oven isn’t included in ’cooking’ and scores 0 points.

    Nail-cutting isn’t included under washing/bathing.

    If you are unable to wash your hair without assistance you would score points but not for getting in/out of the bath because you don’t score for both.

    I don’t think being unable to go out due to ‘panic attacks’ scores as you have to be ‘overwhelmed’ but here is the bit from the DWP guidance so you can judge for yourself….

    OPD means distress related to a mental health condition or intellectual or cognitive impairment resulting in a severe anxiety state in which the symptoms are so severe that the person cannot undertake a journey without being overwhelmed. The threshold is a very high one - a claimant who is anxious, worried or emotional does not meet it.

    I hope this helps you…


  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    ageuk and cab went thrun them and scored points on what i told them-the truth about m y disabilities.
    I cant use my oven because i cant use it safely or reliably.I can prepare a meal using a microwave but not an oven-THAT SCORES POINTS.! and I know i wont score for both but in cant do both so one would count -they should take the highest score.the point about nail cutting is that i cannot bend down to do it-and need assistance to do so-relates to not being able to reach lower body to wash.
    sound like your being picky .and citical 

  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited May 2019
    @rainbow58 - I'm sorry if you think that - I'm trying to help you.

    I'm trying to point out the errors in your post which might explain why you think you should have scored 24 points and didn't.

    The point about the oven isn't anything to do with 'safely or reliably' - it just isn't included under 'cooking' - 

    Can I suggest that you read the DWP PIP assessment guidelines for yourself? 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Completely agree with everything @cristobal has pointed out here and i don't think they are being picky or critical here.

    This guide will help to understand the PIP descriptors more and is well worth having a read. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • WaylayWaylay Member Posts: 922 Pioneering
    @twonker 4th in 12 months?! Dear God. I'm sorry.

    @CockneyRebel I wish I'd known to treat the AR1 as a new application last time. :/
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    edited May 2019
    cristobal said:
    @rainbow58 - I'm sorry if you think that - I'm trying to help you.

    I'm trying to point out the errors in your post which might explain why you think you should have scored 24 points and didn't.

    The point about the oven isn't anything to do with 'safely or reliably' - it just isn't included under 'cooking' - 

    Can I suggest that you read the DWP PIP assessment guidelines for yourself?
    [removed by moderator]
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    As a community champion here on scope i'd like to remind you that we are a friendly community and are here to help. Please be mindful of your comments.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Whether or not you should have scored points for preparing food will depend on the reasons why you're unable to do the activity safely and reliably.
    Proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice I have given to members here on the community.
  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    rainbow58 said:

    if they want to keep things simple why spend 2 hours interrogating.if the assessors want to keep things simple why was mine typing lengthy responses to my short or single word or non existent responses-why make up the **** he did and why lie?
    Most likely to justify why the assessor thinks that the claimant is wrong and is possibly not being entirely truthful?

  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    rainbow58 said:
    ageuk and cab went thrun them and scored points on what i told them-the truth about m y disabilities.
    I cant use my oven because i cant use it safely or reliably.I can prepare a meal using a microwave but not an oven-THAT SCORES POINTS.! and I know i wont score for both but in cant do both so one would count -they should take the highest score.the point about nail cutting is that i cannot bend down to do it-and need assistance to do so-relates to not being able to reach lower body to wash.
    sound like your being picky .and citical 

    The descriptors and associated points were made so narrow and intentional in order to help reduce the number of claims being awarded by the government/DWP.
    The DWP are continuously monitoring the level of awards and if they find that more are getting through the net past experience tells me that they will improve/tighten up the descriptors so as to make it less likely for future awards to be given.

    That is the one advantage PIP has over the previous benefit - DLA.
  • Antonia_AlumniAntonia_Alumni Scope alumni Posts: 1,781 Pioneering

    Just to let you know that I’ve removed abusive comments from a member and taken appropriate action.

    We want the community to be a safe and supportive place and so I'm sorry that this wasn't the case with the comments from this user.

    If you see any similar posts, the quickest way to bring it to our attention is to click the "Flag"-> "Report" link under each comment. If you would like to avoid seeing content from a specific user, you can by using the ignore function to hide their discussion comment. You can also reach the community team by emailing [email protected]

    If you have any questions, don’t hesitate to get in touch.

    Best wishes,

    Antonia


  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,006 Disability Gamechanger
    I appreciate this is horribly long. Please accept my apologies. I can’t see a viable alternative though. I have used links to factual documents where I can as I wish to be clear that my comments are empirically based and not just “my opinion”. Where I express views which are just “my opinion” I will say so. 

    I note that an abusive post has been removed. No idea what that was as I think I’m new to this thread. I am concerned that opinions on here are being presented as fact and that Scope are allowing anyone with an assessment background to post given the potential for harm and distress. It’s not appropriate and absolutely not clear whether they are posting their professional or personal view. That aside there are a number of factual inaccuracies which need addressing urgently.

    Self-test software for means-tested benefits is not bad albeit often misses out things like housing costs etc. and so doesn’t give the full picture. Self-test for disability benefits can only ever be broadly indicative and should not be taken as indicative of likely award levels. For that face to face advice is needed. To that extent @ilovecats is accurate. However, for @ilovecats to then assert that 
    rainbow58 said:
    AgeUK and CAB often grossly overestimate what people are likely to score and in my experience, often have little understanding of the actual medical conditions. Every single PIP form I have ever read (thousands of them) has always massively overestimated the person's disability, especially relating to mental health. They like to use all the buzz words but all that does is flag up to the assessor that you didn't fill the form in yourself. 
    is dangerous territory indeed. For someone with an assessment background to assert that advice services don’t understand medical conditions in the face of stories like this - https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/news/item/mental-health-claimants-2.4-times-as-likely-to-lose-their-benefit-on-transf - really shouldn’t be allowed to pass without comment. Are there good and bad advisers? Absolutely. However, all the evidence amassed since the introduction of PIP suggests that it’s HCPs who have the bigger issue. Here’s a page of reports from the Work and Pensions Committee to reinforce that point. https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/pip-esa-assessments-17-19/

    The assertion that “Every single PIP form I have ever read (thousands of them) has always massively overestimated the person's disability, especially relating to mental health. They like to use all the buzz words but all that does is flag up to the assessor that you didn't fill the form in yourself.“ is effectively a public declaration of bias. I refer you back to the first link above but for accuracy let’s also add in https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3866-dla-to-pip-discrimination-1-in-3-mental-health-claimants-get-zero-award.

    So, here we have multiple large scale independent investigation finding a lack of insight and competence amongst HCPs and a person who claims to have been a HCP declaring that every form they’ve ever read massively overestimates especially in relation to mental health. Make your own minds up! 

    The suggestion that someone should be treated differently as they haven’t completed a form themselves is, in my personal and professional opinion, wrong and would bring into issue para 3.1.2 of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-3-health-professional-performance#health-professional-competencies as regards knowledge. There are multiple reasons why people don’t complete their own claim forms. Start with literacy; mental ill health itself which might include intrusive thoughts which impact concentration and many other issues. One could then look at sensory impairments; the impact of pain upon concentration; physical restrictions (being unable to hold a pen for one example). To dismiss all of that with the sweeping generalisation above is simply shocking to me but most likely to reinforce most people’s views of HCPs so in that sense a very public but unfortunate purpose is being served I suppose.

    If only this stopped there. I will accept that the use of “buzz words” can be unhelpful  but then it depends on what we’re defining as a buzz word and who is using it. It certainly isn’t indicative that a person hasn’t done the form themselves as many claimants pick up professional terms from their medical professionals and that allows them to articulate their functional issues much better in many cases. Dismissing a claim form on this basis appears in this context to be simple bias. ilovecats also said:
    It a bad thing because it is often grossly overstated and lulls vulnerable people who place their trust in CAB that they will A. get an award or B. get a higher rate than they are entitled to.

    It is better to fill in a form badly and come to face to face, that it is too grossly overstate on a form then turn up and look better than your form claims you are. The DWP do not withhold awards just because the form is not filled out well. Not at all! All that means is that the person is more likely to be seen at face to face.

    It is blindly obvious because often people turn up, CAB having claimed restrictions in so many activities, then its clear they don't even know what their form says and it leads to huge inconsistencies in their ability, which leads to no award. If you look like you are lying then it doesn't bode well. 
    I am not about to go into bat for advice services but most people’s experience is that there is no “lulling” going on at all. Online software may indeed lead people down the wrong path but face to face advice tends towards managing expectations downwards as regards a difficult and often demeaning claim and appeal process. The most common conversation I hear between advisers is surprise when awards exceed expectations. That in itself can be a training issue as it suggests consistent underestimation. However, it’s not in the interests of advice services to exaggerate as that damages credibility as a representative for other claimants and for the service as a whole. Does it happen occasionally? Yes of course. Nothing is perfect. However, to suggest it’s on the scale described strikes me as unsustainable given the independent evidence base we now have collected over the past 6 years.

    There is a clear danger people on here will accept the statements in the 2nd para. above as being based on professional experience. I cannot see how a HCP would know any of the above unless their professional experience also included time as DWP decision maker or being present in the tribunal room. I can accept the 1st half of para 2 but the remainder is wrong. DWP have refused benefit claims for decades based on poorly completed claim packs and they continue to do so today. Face to face assessments are triggered in the overwhelming majority of cases and the decision to do one rarely has anything to do with how well the form was completed. We have plenty of evidence to support that view from the assessment guidance as well as from the providers themselves including that given to government. Tribunal deal daily with poorly completed claim packs supported by crystal clear medical evidence wholly disregarded by a HCP.
    Ive said this already but CAB often grossly overestimate a persons disability. Normally because they just blindly believe what a person tells them, an assessor is trained to see what someone can do vs why they don’t do it and look for inconsistencies.
    In 33 years I’ve seen few advisers in CA, independent advice centres or local authority advice blindly accept anything. It’s soon picked up on and addressed. Compare that to the reports to the Work and Pensions Committee as regards poor training; blind disregard of clear facts and so on. Such sweeping generalisations say nothing; are insulting and disrespectful to the services in question (for the purpose of clarity I do not work for CA) and more importantly seem to have the potential to actively discourage people from seeking advice. 

    So we stick to being wholly factual I’m aware of cases in which a HCP claimed to have done a musculoskeletal assessment where none was done formally and it couldn’t have been done informally as they walked ahead of the claimant to the assessment room. I’ve been made aware of a HCP getting the gender of the claimant wrong and refusing to correct it! More recently there was the case where Snellen eye recordings were recorded in detail in the HCP report along with visual field etc. This was a person with no perception of light at all i.e. wholly blind. These are of course purely anecdotal and of course they are a minuscule sample but all my colleagues have tales of clients with similar and worse as do my colleagues across GM and across the UK. It was that weight of evidence we gave to the committees above but it’s important to note that claimants also submitted their evidence in numbers so overwhelming that the committee were moved to explicitly comment on the volume.

    Finally, a personal view informed by my professional knowledge. Assessment is not about knowing the condition at all. It’s about knowing enough of the condition to know the range of likely functional difficulties and then having the interview and listening skills to draw out the relevant as opposed to what people think you need to know. There is within the above quotes an implicit suggestion that a HCP has been trained to understand all such conditions. Professionally, prior to being a HCP they will have training in one focused area. That can vary hugely. As a HCP their training is limited and relatively short and the evidence overwhelming suggests they do not have the level of knowledge often claimed. More importantly there is no recognition in the above posts that 1 condition can produce wildly different symptoms in 2 different people. The starting position appears to be that if a person has condition x they can only have y and z symptoms this any other claims are exaggerations. I strongly feel this is both wrong but also unhealthy. I have met many people with exactly the same conditions as me and if I have learnt nothing else it’s that whilst there are significant areas of common ground their experience and their functional consequences are often wholly different to mine. I’d be very surprised if that wasn’t the common experience. 


  • twonkertwonker Posts: 617 Member
    I agree entirely. After the results of my assessments/re-assessments not one assessor gave me credit for suffering from a range of mental illnesses including an early form of Dementia. Despite evidence confirming the conditions being sent in together with a DWP assessment  report crediting all of my difficulties and consequently awarding me a different benefit for life it was all ignored as 'not relevant' as described by the DM in one instance.
    I actually gave up reporting mental health issues in subsequent claim forms as it felt like I was hitting my head against a brick wall where no one believed me. 
  • corblimeycorblimey Member Posts: 27 Courageous
    As long as you got the medical evidence to back up your claim
    the DWP can go take a long run and jump 
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    @rainbow58 you need to request the statement of reasons and record of proceedings from HMCTS and take both of these to an advice centre near you. If no error in law is found then you won't be able to appeal the decision.
    have recerived SOR fromHMCS-cant read the handwriting-almost all illegible-plus too  much to take in  -i dont understand complex language.one part i did see was "asked if used google maps and A-Z.."-i know for certain   i was not asked that.
    Am waiting appt from CAB-.IF they referred to things that were after October 2017 ie that i have a carer from november 2017-when they stated that it was only up to October 2017-does that count?
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    AgeUK and CAB often grossly overestimate what people are likely to score and in my experience, often have little understanding of the actual medical conditions. Every single PIP form I have ever read (thousands of them) has always massively overestimated the person's disability, especially relating to mental health. They like to use all the buzz words but all that does is flag up to the assessor that you didn't fill the form in yourself. 
  • corblimeycorblimey Member Posts: 27 Courageous
    This is no lie or exaggeration all the disabled charities I asked to help including a benefits specialist solicitor have been worse than useless 

    not that i’m Bragging or anything, but what I achieved blew all the so called help I had before out of the water , so there is some truth in that saying “ if you want something done properly, do it yourself “ 

    only you know how you feel and how things affect you , no one no matter how much they claim they do , can possibly know that or understand, especially those who ate in it for the money 
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    I have heard that local authority welfare rights can be helpful with PIP problems.
  • corblimeycorblimey Member Posts: 27 Courageous
    Tried em all even a pvt benefit solicitor which cost me £450.00 , which got me absolutely no where 
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    Matilda said:
    Your disabilities have to fit certain descriptors and apply at least 50% of the time.  Have a look at the list of descriptors on the Disability Rights UK site.  Try to get some help from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

    I got standard both components after assessment and enhanced both components after appeal.
    my disabilities do fit the descriptors and daily .i have always gone to the CAB for help completing the forms.
  • rainbow58rainbow58 Member Posts: 103 Connected
    ilovecats said:
    rainbow58 said:
    cristobal said:
    @rainbow58 - I'm sorry if you think that - I'm trying to help you.

    I'm trying to point out the errors in your post which might explain why you think you should have scored 24 points and didn't.

    The point about the oven isn't anything to do with 'safely or reliably' - it just isn't included under 'cooking' - 

    Can I suggest that you read the DWP PIP assessment guidelines for yourself?
    [removed by moderator]
    @rainbow58 I’d suggest you behave more respectfully. You have come on here and asked for advice. If you don’t like the answers then don’t ask.

    I used to be an assessor and everything that @cristobel has said is correct.

    Using an oven is not considered for Activity 1. 
    The ability to stand and cook a meal on the job using fresh ingredients is.

    Ive said this already but CAB often grossly overestimate a persons disability. Normally because they just blindly believe what a person tells them, an assessor is trained to see what someone can do vs why they don’t do it and look for inconsistencies.

    poppy123456 has told you to read the guidance.  
    I’ll post a link here for you:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities
    ilovecats said:
    rainbow58 said:
    cristobal said:
    @rainbow58 - I'm sorry if you think that - I'm trying to help you.

    I'm trying to point out the errors in your post which might explain why you think you should have scored 24 points and didn't.

    The point about the oven isn't anything to do with 'safely or reliably' - it just isn't included under 'cooking' - 

    Can I suggest that you read the DWP PIP assessment guidelines for yourself?
    [removed by moderator]
    @rainbow58 I’d suggest you behave more respectfully. You have come on here and asked for advice. If you don’t like the answers then don’t ask.

    I used to be an assessor and everything that @cristobel has said is correct.

    Using an oven is not considered for Activity 1. 
    The ability to stand and cook a meal on the job using fresh ingredients is.

    Ive said this already but CAB often grossly overestimate a persons disability. Normally because they just blindly believe what a person tells them, an assessor is trained to see what someone can do vs why they don’t do it and look for inconsistencies.

    poppy123456 has told you to read the guidance.  
    I’ll post a link here for you:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria#daily-living-activities
    if anyone cant be supportive dont respond.too many opinionated people.difference between offering advice and being critical,It clearly states on the claim  form and they bang on about "doing things reliably and safely".yes and you need an oven to cook meals on.I cannot prepare meals from fresh ingredients nor stand for any length of time to do so,I have had arthrtis and raynauds affecting my hands since 1995 which is why I was initially awarded DLA indefintiely in 1998 on losing my job I could not do due to my disabilities..Saying it takes anyone one minute to walk 25 metres -people walk at different paces especially if disabled-asking how long it takes to walk 20 metres varies per individual-the distance  a non disabled person can walk in say ten minutes can take someone else-a disabled person maybe twice as long,it is about aids used to walk and how far -not timescale.
    It is a known fact and the assessor reports prove in black and white that the assessors lie through their back teeth,twist things around as to what they were exactly told and fabricate anything else.that is why ICE have received many thousands of complaints against ATOS\(Now iAS) and Capita..
    The CAB are trained advisers and my local CAB  filled in my forms for me based on what i told them.Not at any time did they exaggerate anything or put down anything i did not tell them.They were the ones that calculated my scores based on the descriptors.
    ie cannot get out of the bath unaided-3 points-
    cannot walk more than 20 metres aided or unaided.
    use aids to manage meds 
    use aids to manage toilet needs-the fact that they are used not where they are obtained from.
    my grab rails,bedrail,walking stick,bath seat were all provided by OT.
    i should have scored enough points for enhanced in both parts of PIP.
  • cristobalcristobal Member Posts: 966 Disability Gamechanger
    edited July 2019
    @rainbow58 - I'm not sure whether you count me as critical or supportive, but I'll respond one last time.

    I don't doubt you when you say that you need an oven to cook on. The problem is that the PIP category for 'preparing food' it only considers preparing food above waist height. Whether you can bend down to use an oven is not considered, and the CAB should know this.

    If they have advised you that you should score points for this then they are wrong.
  • MatildaMatilda Member Posts: 2,616 Disability Gamechanger
    So, are you appealing @rainbow58?

    I got 4 points in the food prep descriptor as more than 50% of the time I cannot peel and chop veg even using aids.
    Tribunal gave me the two extra points.  Assessor only gave me 2 points.  She decided I could prepare veg using aids.  It was too complex for her to understand (she was a paramedic) that more than 50% of time I could not prepare veg even using aids.

    Most assessors are too dim to take into account the reliability criteria - safely, repeatedly, in a reasonable time.  You have to go to appeal to find interviewers with brains who understand the descriptors criteria.
  • pcoventrypcoventry Member Posts: 149 Pioneering
    edited July 2019
    The DA in my F2F was a nurse and she came to my house - despite telling her that I can't go anywhere without someone else - especially when driving because I freak out if I go somewhere I don't know - she said I had no MH issues and said I could plan a route unaided - I literally have to program 3 sat navs, google map the **** out of where I am going AND have someone with me.

    The DWP said ' okay so you only need that 1 thing looking at - shouldn't take long" and now I wait - I was only awarded Standard mobility 2 days ago after 15 weeks waiting!

    I agree, they don't know **** and the problem is the case managers who are totally non medical just go on what the report says! I knew I had Enchanced living and Standard Motab as soon as I got the report (even tough I called and they added notes on) 
  • drewdundeedrewdundee Member Posts: 49 Courageous
    My only advice is if you have the mental capacity to fill out your pip form honestly, truthfully and truly have a disability you will be successful. Maybe not after the assessment or the MR but at tribunal you will be. If you have gone through all of that and still are not successful perhaps pip is not the right welfare program for you.
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