pip tribunal won then bad news

rainbow58

poppy123456 said:

You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.

thank you for that

rainbow58

rainbow58 said:

poppy123456 said:

You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.

thank you for that

will CAB be able to recognise what is an error of law?

poppy123456

I have no idea if they will or not.

CockneyRebel

All you can do is ask, but it is quite specialised

Matilda

@rainbow58

You can make a new claim for PIP at any time.  Disability Rights UK site has a good guide to claiming PIP.  They have a draft diary you can adapt.  Include a 7 day diary in table form that sets out your daily activities, how long the take, if you can complete them, and the aids you use.  Often claims fail because the presentation is weak.  You have to qualify for points at least 50% of the time, at least 4 days out of 7.  Don't underestimate your disabilities.

rainbow58

i did all this on my original PIP claim form -my claim failed as did many many others because the assessors lied in their reports and put their own interpretation of things-claimed to "observe things they did not or could possibly not have seen".The PIP self (points)test states specifically what you score points for -not how many days -nor how often or how long it takes to walk 20 metres but whether one can walk 20 metres without pain  and fatigue,whether one uses aids, can prepare a meal using a microwave not oven,i use aids for getting out of bed,getting about,getting dressed ,taking meds ,eating,washing,toileting every day of the week.i cannot bend to wash my feet cut my toe nails,cannot prepare fresh vegs for meals-my carer does that.I dont socialise or engage with people every day as the assessor claimed -she engages with people every day-postmen,gp receptionists,shop assistants.I rarely go out-who talks to their postmen every day,?go to the doctors every day?I have to get my head ingear  mentally to go to the shops which is never more than once a week,
the assessor wrongly claimed to "observe me sort through pspers laid on the floor from a seated positiion" and applied that to every activity even though it was false and could not be applied to certain activities,.He did not observe it because it never took place-I was sat at a table with my chair right up to the table facing the assessor the whole time trying to focus on what was being asked,The only papers i had were in my bag next to me on the table -i did not even get them out.

rainbow58

rainbow58 said:

poppy123456 said:

You have 1 month to request the SOR, it's not 1 month to appeal. From the time you receive the SOR it's 1 month.

thank you for that

am certain it said one month to appeal-will need to cgeck -have put the letter out of sight -out of mind,

Matilda

Your disabilities have to fit certain descriptors and apply at least 50% of the time.  Have a look at the list of descriptors on the Disability Rights UK site.  Try to get some help from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

I got standard both components after assessment and enhanced both components after appeal.

poppy123456

It won't be about what the assessors think or did because the Tribunal will have looked at all of that, including the evidence you sent to support your claim. I'm afraid you won't know anything until you receive the SOR and find someone to have a look through it to see if there's an error in law.

Matilda

It might be, rainbow, that you didn't show the tribunal that your disabilities comply with enough descriptors and apply 50% of the time or more.  Believe me, you won't score enough points to qualify for PIP unless your claim meets these criteria.

If you do make a new claim, try to get some f2f advice from CAB or similar, or local authority welfare rights.

rainbow58

I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,

twonker

rainbow58 said:

I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
For a start it matters not if a Tribunal asks a question that to you, me and others appears to be at odds to what the descriptors say. Asking questions in a roundabout sort of way may well give them the answer to what they are seeking far better than asking a direct question based on the descriptors. For example if asked how long can you walk reliably, any answer over 1 minute would tell the panel that at a minimum you could walk 25 metres.
As for aids that have not been supplied or recommended by the medical/social professions could suggest that you use them out of choice and not out of need.
If both AgeUK and the CAB told you that you may well win the lottery if you use all odd numbers starting at 11 what would you say? The same goes for their advice on the points. Only the Tribunal and the DWP can award points which may or may not be in line with what you have been told previously.

they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
Drawing comparisons as to what complied with DLA/IB/ or ESA is ridiculous. PIP is what it is and has a totally different set of rules. descriptors  and criteria.
As an example I have had the DWP assess and re-assess me many times in respect of a reduction in mental health capacity. In every case they have agreed that I have lost 40% of what a 'normal' individual has. So much so that 5 years ago they made the award 'for life'. However for PIP they have concluded in all of my assessments & re-assessments that I do not have any problems with my mental health. Why? Because each benefit assesses the condition in a different way.

what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,
As I have said above there are many ways of getting at the point if any descriptors fit your impact. Some questions may not seem relevant. 

I have tried to point you in the right direction with some of points that you have mentioned

Matilda

Giving just a time for how long you can walk might suggest you can walk farther than in fact you can.  Always give time and distance - it takes you X minutes or seconds to walk Ymeters.  Don't let them lead you into saying you can walk farther than in fact you can.  And of course you might be able to walk for five minutes but this might have to include two stops of two minutes each.  Spell it out for them or they are likely to make up their own minds to your disadvantage.

If you can't walk farther than 20m without needing to stop and rest because of pain , stiffness or fatigue, keep insisting that is the case.

Points are awarded for how your medical conditions affect your daily living and mobility, not for the conditions themselves.

PIP has different rules to ESA. What might pass for one won't necessarily pass for the other.

I was asked if someone else recommended that I use aids and I replied that I decided myself I needed them.  People are capable of deciding for themselves if they need aids.

You might have been unlucky in getting a particularly difficult panel - some are though most are reasonable.

rainbow58

twonker said:

rainbow58 said:

I answered the questions they put to me and gave them the answers that award points .the PIP test does not ask how long it takes to walk a disatnce but how far you can walk with or wihtout aids -and the pain etc experienced,it does not  state how often -i told then waht aidfs i used and they only asked abotu two of them-again it s htta i need to use aids nto where i obtain them from.so how come AGEUK and CAB both scored me 24 points fro care and 22 for mobility -because I do qualify fro those points and PIP.
For a start it matters not if a Tribunal asks a question that to you, me and others appears to be at odds to what the descriptors say. Asking questions in a roundabout sort of way may well give them the answer to what they are seeking far better than asking a direct question based on the descriptors. For example if asked how long can you walk reliably, any answer over 1 minute would tell the panel that at a minimum you could walk 25 metres.
As for aids that have not been supplied or recommended by the medical/social professions could suggest that you use them out of choice and not out of need.
If both AgeUK and the CAB told you that you may well win the lottery if you use all odd numbers starting at 11 what would you say? The same goes for their advice on the points. Only the Tribunal and the DWP can award points which may or may not be in line with what you have been told previously.

they put things in such a away that you have to answer them-.they complied fro DLA and IB?ESA - so they comply now as my conditons have got worse sicne 2009.they never asked questioins about my arthtirits and raynauds and that i cant hold anyhtign -but i told them that and that wqas all in my PIP claim form and what was  acepted fro IB/ESA/DLA.
Drawing comparisons as to what complied with DLA/IB/ or ESA is ridiculous. PIP is what it is and has a totally different set of rules. descriptors  and criteria.
As an example I have had the DWP assess and re-assess me many times in respect of a reduction in mental health capacity. In every case they have agreed that I have lost 40% of what a 'normal' individual has. So much so that 5 years ago they made the award 'for life'. However for PIP they have concluded in all of my assessments & re-assessments that I do not have any problems with my mental health. Why? Because each benefit assesses the condition in a different way.

what is th epoint of havvign th ePIP test which scores points fro "using aids " and "not beign able to prepare meals or get out of the bath unaided .Iuse aids every day for dressing ,taking meds,eating,gettign about and carer prepares meals washe s and dries my hair becasue I cant .I dont " engage with people and schooling has nothing to do with PIP-as I became ill in 1994.nor did my job involve budsgettign as they tried to imply.they are just as much conniving/scheming  as hte asessors are
what does it matter when a photo was taken fro my travel permit-  granted becasue  i meet th ecriteria for a disabled travel pass jsut as i do for a blue badge.,
As I have said above there are many ways of getting at the point if any descriptors fit your impact. Some questions may not seem relevant. 

I have tried to point you in the right direction with some of points that you have mentioned

no you are just ststing your opinion,.everyone knows what lying conniving b..the assessors are,and no PIP is not entirely a different benefit the descriptors are the same as for DLA and some for ESA,I cant walk across the road without pain fatigue breathlessness and always use a walking stick -they were told that i needed to stop and rest several times for pain fatigue etc and as i have no awarness of time or distance I cant say how long it will take as each day is different,The descriptors are the same as for DLA -I answered the same questions on ESA claim form which were accepted .

poppy123456

DLA and PIP are different benefits, i'm sorry to say and DLA didn't have descriptors.

twonker

ilovecats said:

They like to use all the buzz words but all that does is flag up to the assessor that you didn't fill the form in yourself. 

Which is a bad thing?

On the other hand if someone fills out their own PIP2 with no help or advice they are likely to not understand fully the descriptors and/or fail to make it clear exactly how the impact they have matches the relevant descriptors - thus enabling the DWP to give no award due to an incomplete claim form!

You just can't win it seems.

emilyjane15

I can't believe how people have to lose any dignity they have left telling these people details of stuff we wish to be private just like people who don't have disabilities.
I mean if disabled people have to declare whether they can wipe there own bums or need to wear nappies because they are incontinent for money which isn't that much but needed. Then so should people with no disabilities to the work place. It's not right. I mean ticking a box saying you can't hold your bladder anymore is one thing but having to go into detail to a bunch of strangers to be given zero at the end is outrageous and degrading.
Sorry to jump on this thread but I've read story after story of what disabled people are having to go through just to have money to exist and existing is all that is happening and by a thread 
If disabled people have to declare such very personal detail then so should the non disabled to the work place. I mean I'm sure mcdonalds would want to make sure people can wipe there back side properly before handling food .

Matilda

Regardless of the quality of the claim form, some people are just very bad at presenting their case orally.  So, in such cases the written evidence needs to be very strong.

 In my tribunal award letter (the judge's letter) it said that I was 'cogent' - which of course must have helped me win my appeal.

twonker

ilovecats said:

It a bad thing because it is often grossly overstated and lulls vulnerable people who place their trust in CAB that they will A. get an award or B. get a higher rate than they are entitled to.

It is better to fill in a form badly and come to face to face, that it is too grossly overstate on a form then turn up and look better than your form claims you are. The DWP do not withhold awards just because the form is not filled out well. Not at all! All that means is that the person is more likely to be seen at face to face. 

It is blindly obvious because often people turn up, CAB having claimed restrictions in so many activities, then its clear they don't even know what their form says and it leads to huge inconsistencies in their ability, which leads to no award. If you look like you are lying then it doesn't bode well. 

So in a way You are suggesting that claimants should not see a welfare rights organisation but should instead struggle through filling out the forms not giving very much relevant information and trusting that an assessor will do a complete, correct and consistent assessment?

I actually fall into that category in that I have never sought advice or help in filling out the claim forms, struggled and failed to get everything across on the forms, had assessors  that made up things that never happened reported what I was supposed to have said but didn't and concluded that contrary to my reports etc that there was nothing wrong with me!

And then am told that I must have had two poor quality assessors but never mind they all can't be perfect!

twonker

ilovecats said:

Unfortunately, it’s only by exploring the finer details does one understand the greater level of disability. 

Just ticking a box to say yes, does not mean it is true and doesn’t give enough detail. 

E.g there is a difference between someone who has stress incontinence from childbirth who can manage with a Tena lady and complete urinary incontinence requiring full incontinence pads. 

It’s not nice but unfortunately it has to be done. A lot of people rely on 2 points in A 1, 4, 5 & 6 to gain a standard award so by not discussing Toilet needs, 2 vital points could be missed. 

Do you seriously suggest that taking mental health matters you are expecting the claimant to go into the finer details of what caused the issue and how you are today?
 If that is the case you are in danger of undoing all of the work that has gone on in trying to make the claimant look to the future only and to ignore the past history. Personally no matter what an assessor does in this regard I will not for my own sanity want to discuss that depth of information as I know full well how with dragging it all up it will affect me.