PIP, DLA and AA
If this is your first visit, check out the community guide. You will have to Join us or Sign in before you can post.

Capita telephone assessment

Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
edited May 2020 in PIP, DLA and AA
Hi Folks, I’m not sure what to do here. I already knew capita face to face assessments were suspended because of the virus but I thought this would mean either paper based assessments being done or waiting until they get back to normal which I wouldn’t have minded 

However I got a letter from capita today telling me I will have to have a telephone assessment. This is ridiculous, not only am I no good at talking to strangers on the phone but how can they accurately assess me when they can’t even see me 

Does anyone know if I have the right to refuse this and tell them I would rather wait, I’m in Northern Ireland if that makes any difference which I don’t think it would 

Any helpful advice much appreciated 
Tagged:

Replies

  • daisy80daisy80 Member Posts: 12 Listener
    I am hard of hearing and was told today they arent doing paper based assessments only tel ones. I said surely there has to be an alternative for deaf or hard of hearing but was told to put the assessor on loud speaker?! If I declined the tel assessment they said they were going to send my claim to dwp as not complying and my claim to be withdrawn! Surely if I can't hear how can i have a tel assessment. I've sent them the info telling them this from the hospital. They advised to tell the assessor on the day and see what they can do or see if someone can help me. I suffer with multiple mental health conditions to and it's causing me so much stress. They told me they arent doing any paper based ones now only tel ones. 
  • wilkowilko Member Posts: 2,300 Disability Gamechanger
    Hello and welcome, when you we and I apply for pip we fill in a detailed questionnaire answering questions relating to each of the PIP descriptiors and where we feel necessary add more information reference to the descriptiors we need to. When you have a F2F or telephone assessment the assessors job is and will be to confirm your answer given as per each of the descriptiors and noting your answers and making a report to send to the desision makers at DWP. Now being not a F2F the assessors can't see your appearance, state of dress, anxiousness, eye contact or any mobility issues you may have. This could be a good thing for some people but I feel only time will tell many will be refused because of lack of evidence, and more Mrs will be required and no doubt tribunals. 
  • LeelinkLeelink Member Posts: 16 Connected
    This is actually worrying me. I just submitted a UC50 form before all the pandemic so i'm expecting to either have to do a telephone call or a paper assessment. The only downside is my main reason for claiming this is because of my anxiety on phones. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    For one thing how could they possibly do an accurate and fair assessment (not that they’re ever accurate or fair anyway) when they can’t even see you. Wouldn’t it be better to wait until they can assess you in person 
  • worried33worried33 Member Posts: 399 Pioneering
    edited April 2020
    I find it interesting people seem to be preferring f2f over phone assessments.

    I have always felt the only benefit of a f2f, is for the purpose of anti fraud.  Because what is any other benefit of them seeing you?

    Anything they can see, can be told to them on the phone.

    They dont carry out actual medical examinations, I have never been asked to do more than press down on their hands.  It involves them sitting there on their laptop asking you questions.
  • fatherinpainfatherinpain Member Posts: 177 Courageous
    I believe after doing a telephone tribunal it would’ve been more beneficial to all parties if I had face to face, I’m not very good at expressing what my mind wants me to actually say, which I think would be easier to pick up on in person then the other end of telephone.
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    Telephone appeals are currently being determined overwhelmingly in favour of claimants. The same is likely to be the case with those assessments which will also take place over the phone. There are significant advantages in not doing an oral hearing. 

    Worth bearing in mind you retain the right to a paper hearing and there’s absolutely nothing to stop you asking for one. The new regs out yesterday don’t change that.

     https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/news/item/temporary-amendments-to-tribunal-procedure-rules-to-mitigate-against-impact-of-covid-19-on-tribunal-users-and-the-judiciary
  • fatherinpainfatherinpain Member Posts: 177 Courageous
    I’m just giving my experience of it and how I see it would have been more beneficial to have f2f. This is more to do with how my conditions  are, 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    I’m just giving my experience of it and how I see it would have been more beneficial to have f2f. This is more to do with how my conditions  are, 
    I think you can make a judgement on what might be beneficial for you in terms of your health but that needs to be separated from getting the outcome you want. In reality there are unlikely to be any oral hearings this year so your choice is paper or telephone. We already know from years of stats that the success rate for paper hearings is ordinarily 5-8% compared to up to 76% for oral hearings. 

    However, whilst the success rate of paper hearings has suddenly risen now because salaried judges were being allowed to triage and just allow the “no-brainers” that could win on the papers, that’s likely to go down again now that emergency legislation allows them to decide cases on the papers without consent.

    The success rate of those telephone hearings which have proceeded is, anecdotally, far higher than the norm and however gruelling a phone tribunal can be there are plenty of people who find an oral hearing to be exactly that and often more so.

    Now, there is clearly a percentage of people for whom any kind of tribunal hearing can do permanent damage to their health but they are very much a small number. Most tribunals cause stress of varying levels but, hard as it is to often see it, that’s a temporary thing so you have to weigh up that temporary damage to your health versus your desire for a positive outcome. It is absolutely your choice and what’s right for one might never be right for another but right now you at least need to be aware that an oral hearing is not an option and in terms of actually winning a phone hearing is the next best option by some distance. Nevertheless, your choice.
  • fatherinpainfatherinpain Member Posts: 177 Courageous
    I get what your saying but for me it’s easier to hide behind a phone then face to face so to give them the best picture of my condition/s would’ve been face to face, obviously this is hindsight seeing as this isn’t possible in the current situation 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Thank you all for your comments. I decided to go along with the phone assessment. It took just 26 minutes 

    As they couldn’t see me at least they shouldn’t get away with telling their lies like they usually do for example saying I made good eye contact when I didn’t even look at them or saying I showed no signs of anxiety 
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,955

    Scope community team

    Let us know when yo get the results @Dave1979. Fingers crossed for you.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Hi Folks I got the results today, zero points on every descriptor, this is despite the fact that I sent them 100+ pages of evidence to back up my claim. Now there’s all the trouble of appealing it 
  • Lou67Lou67 Member Posts: 868 Pioneering
    @Dave1979. Hi I’m so sorry to hear you didn’t get your award, it’s such a nightmare going through this process, you will have 1 month to put in an MR to see if they will change there decision, if not then it’s an appeal, I’m going through the same as yourself only I got awarded standard mobility, I had previously been receiving DL standard it was a big difference, I really hope you can get it sorted good luck.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Dave1979 said:
    Hi Folks I got the results today, zero points on every descriptor, this is despite the fact that I sent them 100+ pages of evidence to back up my claim. Now there’s all the trouble of appealing it 
    Really sorry to hear this @Dave1979! Have you requested a copy of the report? This could allow you to see why the points weren't awarded.

    You can either:

    If you choose to write a letter, include all the information required by the online form.

    Please do let us know if there is anything else we can do to help. :)
    Community Partner
    Scope

    Tell us what you think?
    Complete our feedback form to help us to improve your community.
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Hi Folks, I have the copy of the report, basically it says they have decided I can do each and every thing my pip form states I can’t do. Funny how they would know what I can or cannot do when they have never met me nor do they know anything about me, it’s laughable when they say it’s consistent with my medical history even though I have sent them plenty of notes from my medical history which clearly back up my claim. Also it’s apparently a problem that I don’t have a specialist for each and every disability or condition that I have, never mind the fact that it’s hard enough to get talking to a gp about anything these days let alone a specialist. The DFC ( Northern Ireland version of DWP have had a spite at me for many years for some unknown reason, their decision was clearly a result of this, I have applied for a mandatory reconsideration which is most likely a waste of time, I really need an appeal to put these scumbag bullies in their place once and for all
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Really sorry it wasn't a better result @Dave1979! I can imagine this was disheartening. How are you doing?
    Community Partner
    Scope

    Tell us what you think?
    Complete our feedback form to help us to improve your community.
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Hi Chloe, yes it sure was disheartening, zero points twice in a row despite sending them over 30 years worth of evidence. I’m very annoyed but getting there, I have my MP involved and a local councillor too so hopefully my appeal will go well, goodness knows how long it will take though 
  • Lou67Lou67 Member Posts: 868 Pioneering
    Dave1979. Sorry to hear that, it’s one of the worst processes to go through, I’m currently waiting on word on my MR but will probably be the long rd to appeal, please don’t give up. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    This time I won’t give up, I even told them that in my appeal letter. I know this may sound crazy but it seems like this time they gave me zero points deliberately out of spite. As for the MR if you ask me it’s a waste of time put there to try to make us give up
  • Lou67Lou67 Member Posts: 868 Pioneering
    Yes not many win MR at all I think roughly 17% but they make us do it before we appeal I have currently been waiting 10 weeks, which is supposedly be the normal waiting time which is ridiculous and I no we have been in lockdown and it’s held things up but this is the time limit even before oh sorry I’m going into a rant lol 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    @Dave1979 for me you’ve summarised two potentially huge flaws in your case here. Firstly 100 pages of evidence and secondly the fact it covers 30 years. Both things suggest you’ve misunderstood what PIP is and what they’re looking at. 

    100 pages of evidence is way too much. For most cases it’s arguable that 10 pages of medical reports is too much. If your diagnosis is not in dispute and you’ve fully detailed your meds and treatments in your claim pack then often zero medical evidence is good enough. Look again at your medical evidence and ask yourself what it says about your ability to perform the descriptors. My guess would be “not a lot”. Medical evidence can talk about diagnosis, prognosis and treatments but unless you’ve cooked with your consultant; gone to the loo in front of them etc. then it’s likely to be of limited help. 

    Similarly if your 100 pages was you totally focused on explaining why you can’t perform  the descriptors and giving an example or two per activity then most people would say you’ve written 10 times too much. Less is more and your care needs narrowing down to be sharply focused on your performance of each descriptor and so,e recent anecdotes to support that. 

    30 years of evidence is largely irrelevant. PIP doesn’t even require that you have a diagnosis. They certainly don’t need a medical history and the only relevant evidence is that which shows what you were like on your date of claim. 

    The success rate at MR is 16% and is effectively random so realistically you’re off to appeal. Put bluntly no appeal will ever be decided by 100 pages of evidence. Your case needs massively simplifying and you need advice from a welfare rights adviser. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected



    Hi, thank you for your comments, yes I understand how PIP is supposed to be assessed, however my reason for sending a large amount of evidence is because as you will see in the redacted scans I have included they are simply making up their own rules as they go along for example I attended a mainstream school, I sat GCSE exams, I don't have a specialist for each and every disability I have, whatever any of that has to do with PIP, as you will also see everything I said I couldn't do they simply said they have decided I can do it based on absolutely nothing, no evidence whatsoever
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    I’m afraid my points still stand. Your decision is from a template using standard paragraphs that will often/usually have nothing to do with you. It can basically be ignored. The wording won’t even come up if you go to appeal. Tribunals treat such sections as the joke they largely are.

    The trap you’ve fallen into is in reacting to what DWP or a HCP say instead of putting together your own case based on why you meet the descriptors and giving anecdotal examples of what happened when you try to perform them. There is literally nothing in 100 pages or 30 years of evidence that could refute what they've written above. You could refute everything above by simply explaining why it’s untrue in about half a side of A4 and then moving onto what your actual case is. You can’t get PIP by simply reacting to them saying you can’t. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    My MP is looking into it and so is a local councillor so I will have plenty of help with the appeal. My point is that there are literally thousands of people claiming PIP who don’t have specialists, attended mainstream schools, sat GCSEs etc. As you say yourself a diagnosis isn’t even supposed to matter yet they are demanding specialist input. I’ve never been to appeal about PIP or DLA before, just about incapacity benefit and that was many years ago 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    edited June 2020
    Okay, nice as the involvement of an MP and a councillor are they aren’t going to be able to help you with your appeal and nor will they represent you on the day. They know what they know but they won’t know their way round PIP regs, guidance or case law. For that you will need an actual welfare rights adviser. 

    Also there’s some confusion here. PIP do not demand specialist input. They can’t demand anything. They can only assess the evidence you put in. It’s certainly one of their glib responses that a person without specialist input can’t have much wrong with them but that’s easy enough to refute again if you have specialist advice from a WRA. Indeed in the past week on here I have posted the caselaw which helps refute it on another thread in this forum. Again though you’re building a case reacting to their comments. That’s not how it works and it won’t get you PIP. Less is more and a small amount of evidence focused on the descriptors with supporting anecdotal evidence will always trump a small books worth. 

    Please have a look at https://advicelocal.uk/ and get yourself someone who will put a case together and represent you on the day. 


  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Hi dave dont give up. My husband  got his decision today. 0 for absolutely  everything.  Mr started. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Hi Dawny that’s awful, unbelievable how they can give anybody zero. I hope he gets his money 
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    We explained because of covid we couldn't get doctors letter. Orxray results.  They said dont worry we will ring them. I dont believe they did. As husband  spoke with doctor. The doctor isn't aware of any calls.  Never mind will keep going.
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    edited June 2020
    There’s yet another one of their lies exposed, they wreckon giving me zero points is consistent with my medical records even though I have copies of my medical records some of which I sent to them and the records clearly back up my side of the story. They’re the scum of the earth 
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    This is the first time my husband has applied for pip. The lady that did the telephone assesment seemed really  nice. Even sympathetic.!! But what a shock every  last bit of what he said seemed  to differ with what she wrote. Even to the point it was like she was talking about  someone else. Dont know if a mistake  or set up that way. Seems  as if the assesment is nothing about  him or his words. Really  very shocked. 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Sounds exactly like mine, sure they will sound nice but they’re very 2 faced, they’re not looking for a reason to give you pip they’re looking for a reason not too and will resort to total lies if they feel it’s necessary 
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    That's a very sad state of affairs.  We understand  the government  having  to be careful  with tax payers  money. But you feel like a fraud trying to  drain money from the system.  
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    dawny63 said:
    This is the first time my husband has applied for pip. The lady that did the telephone assesment seemed really  nice. Even sympathetic.!! But what a shock every  last bit of what he said seemed  to differ with what she wrote. Even to the point it was like she was talking about  someone else. Dont know if a mistake  or set up that way. Seems  as if the assesment is nothing about  him or his words. Really  very shocked. 

    Hi Dawny63, Ive recently had a PIP Tel Assessment just like yours, all very nice as it would appear on the surface.  Scored 0 in everything haha. Got the Report and also would appear to be for someone else. Sound familiar eh. However its clear that the strategy the HC uses over the phone was conveniently helpful for them and the DWP to reject any award.  Its not a mistake of the HC assessor, its intentional, they are not incompedant as you can see from their skilled level of reporting.  They are taking advantage of the current restricted situation for there measly money saving policies.  In the tel consult question are might for example be asked " do you drive a manual car", but they converneintly do not go any further and ask what  difficulties you have, its extremely underhand.  You will score 0 because you drive a manual and they then declare you have full use of your limbs.  Perhaps your husband was also question using this strategy.  Basically this leaves everyone questioned in such a way over the phone with little chance of an award.  Ive looked at the HC assessors webpage, it says they are not out to trick you and theres nothing to be anxious about during the assessments.  This is not true, they are using trained questioning techniques that will discredit your PIP Application and ensure minimal award and maximum savings for the Gov.  Would it be totally out of order to name and shame the individual Assessors? That would make them think twise before they try and write a bias non award giving report.  their job is to find out more about your difficulties doing the activities, clearly they are not doing this, intentionally!     
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Yes it's not a good thing. At least if they see you harder for mistakes.  
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    In mine it said my voice didn’t change, I was gonna write back and tell them I’m a disabled person not an alien 
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    From the comments Ive seen on here and my own experience I think the suitability of Tel Consultation during the current Virus Epidemic should be questioned.  Its obvious its not giving a fair and accuarate account of Claiment difficulties and leaving us with an impossibly harder task.  Ive requested a MR but I am totally lost as to how I could change there minds but only repeat what I put in my Application, to which they have completely disregarded so far so why would anything change this?
    Given the curent viris situation we have all been asked to help and do our bit but its clear certain govt depts are not acting in the spirit of things and are actually making it harder for some individuals. 

    I would encourage anyone adversely affected to speak up and for those influential placed to make the concerns heard.

    It would be normal if the PIP dept took in to account the current difficulties and offered anyone who feels they have been unfairly represented by the Tel Consultation additional help. This is not happening!  Additional help as possibly a face2face assessment or a second Tel Consulatation exporing why we disagree with the first and what matters need further consideration. 


  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Totally  agree well said.  At an assesment  they can see how you walk. At an acceptable  manner safely  in reasonable time ect. Your walking gait. With oral questions can lead to assumptions.  For some  people it could be a good thing doing telephone  assesment. Others would be more beneficial  to be seen. The problem with trying  to get pip. Your disability doesn't actually  count.!!. You dont even need any medical diagnosis.   Even when you have they can make their own assumptions.  They are doing the job the assesments  the way dwp wants.  I actually  believe  the definition and  descriptors  are set up to fail.
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Not 2 mention if they see you walking a couple of steps using an aid they will put down that you can walk at least 200 meters unaided 
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Haha used that for my husband.  He can drive automatic  so can walk 200 metres.  Also everything  he can't  do  in their opinion  he can.  Just because  he can  drive.  With osteoarthritis  alot of problems  are weight  bearing.  Bending   up and down  stairs.  But hey according  to the nurse everything  can  be done to set standards.  Even doctor  medical  information  and xray  results  wrong. He has moderate  oa in knee. In  back and  hip. All backed by doctors.  Also xray  evidence.  But according  to  the nurse has no problems.  
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    Pretty much the same as mine, if you go on up the page a bit you will see a copy of mine that I posted, I take it you’re husband’s is much the same. They have even mentioned that I attended an ordinary school and sat GCSEs whatever that has to do with pip or disabilities. At the end of the day you could have a university degree and still have disabilities 
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Said that about  school ect. He is appealing  even if same outcome.  Will go all  the  way  to  tribunal  if need to.  The way I look at things  each  person's disability  is unique  to them.  Everyone  will cope in different  ways. But their criteria  is one fits all. 
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    It’s an interesting discussion but your own experiences are not reflective of the general experience. In most cases telephone assessments are producing better outcomes for claimants. No-one is claiming that the HCP process is perfect but it’s certainly been better under lockdown not worse and that’s totally reflected in awards made etc. 

    The fundamental problem with obsessing with the HCP is that it’s a distraction. You need to construct your own case rather than expect to build one from reacting to it. Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    It’s an interesting discussion but your own experiences are not reflective of the general experience. In most cases telephone assessments are producing better outcomes for claimants. No-one is claiming that the HCP process is perfect but it’s certainly been better under lockdown not worse and that’s totally reflected in awards made etc. 

    The fundamental problem with obsessing with the HCP is that it’s a distraction. You need to construct your own case rather than expect to build one from reacting to it. Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.

    No matter what you think the general experience is,  it certaintly is not correct to allow claiments to be unfairly treated. 
    How do you know the present telephone consultations are providing better outcomes for most? Its clear that for some they are not, and it would be helpful if this was given consideration.  From my own personel experience I can demonstrate the HC manipulated questioning to uphold their recommendations and the DWP decision maker conveniently followed those to award 0, despite the application suggestioning a different situation.  Along with that the HC decided to add some fictional material to further boost their recommendations.  From what Ive seen this is not an unusual, on this forum discussion alone a few claimants express the same experiences.  Instead of claiming how great the current situation is for most it would of much great worth to discuss why for some its not and what can be done to help.  Your final sentence, who is that referenced to help?      
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    How do I know? It’s my area of work and has been for a long time. I’ve yet to come across anyone working in the field nationally who would say its worse across the board. It is not. Of course there are exceptions but they are just that. 

    I’ve already acknowledged that your experiences is your experience. That does not make it the majority experience. A fact acknowledged by the Work and Pensions committee who, after having the largest response in history, could still only conclude that there was an issue in a significant minority of cases. Since lockdown, telephone assessments have generally been better for people and ditto telephone appeals. People don’t tend to come online and describe what a great experience they had so you won’t be reading that here unless people who have dealt with more than their own case and some stuff on a forum say so. 

    You might want to read some of my other posts on here before you comment further. My final sentence was “ Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.”. To answer your question it was addressed to those who wish to have a successful outcome regardless of their HCP experience. 

    Over the past 7 years of PIP it can be demonstrably shown to be good advice; the most likely advice you’ll get from a welfare rights adviser and absolutely legally correct. It’s also a line used by tribunals. Weakening one piece of evidence which goes against you does just that. Nothing else. When the tribunal then turn round and conclude that, despite that, you’re not entitled because the rest of your evidence was insufficient? What then? So, that sentence? Great advice. Actually possibly the best single piece of advice on getting PIP you will ever get. 

    You are absolutely free to disregard it. 
  • Lulu_1949Lulu_1949 Member Posts: 225 Pioneering
    @greenman, I understand exactly where you are coming from , it was all lies on my sons documents on the assessment . The lady only listed 3 medical reports out of 31 reports. Thought it would be picked up by DWP. Wrote a long letter stating exactly what happened ....the truth .. they didn’t,  gave my son  4 points and 4 points , went to reconsideration and got virtually the same answer, it’s as if it was copied and pasted.... so unfair. I know it goes on descriptives but surely they should read all the medical reports!  This was the reason we went to tribunal .
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    Medical reports are rarely of direct assistance as they don’t usually direct themselves to the PIP descriptors. They all get read but they’re not necessarily relevant.

    Calling a HCP a liar is also not the best move. You can show they got things wrong. You can only show they lied if you have a recording and, as described above, that’s riddled with problems. 

    Bottom line? Tribunals aren’t interested in your view of the HCP and will want to hear minimally about the wrongs of the report. As stated above, proving entitlement to PIP is not done just by ripping apart a HCP report. 
  • Lulu_1949Lulu_1949 Member Posts: 225 Pioneering
    @mikehughescq sorry but I did not directly call them a liar I am just telling the forum it was lies...l my ACTUAL words were exactly as you said ..incorrect information BUT I must disagree with you and I am sorry but  yes a recording proves a lie, but surely if someone writes down something about you which is incorrect this also a lie because it’s the opposite to the truth. You only have to look at newspapers that are sued for deformation if character .... that is the written word  and when it goes to court it is sometimes proved it was lies although not recorded.
  • samfits99samfits99 Member Posts: 155 Courageous
    @Dave1979 I have special needs and ADHD. went to a special needs school on the mini bus. and I got it straight away! the decision maker said because I went a special needs unit granted me PIP. and I would of gave you a reward based on that alone. and evidence as that’s a life long condition. so I’m happy. 
  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    hi @samfits99, my laptop froze for an hour whilst i was printing advice for you, ill  keep trying, maybe this heavy rain and winds today? stay strong and dont give up, im very sorry you have been treated so bad 
  • Dave1979Dave1979 Member Posts: 19 Connected
    @samfits99 Hi, my wife is in the same position, she attended a special needs school and traveled on the minibus, she got full rate pip first time. I have special needs too but I attended a mainstream school (with great difficulty) and they are trying to use that against me 
  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    hi @Dave1979, sorry about your awful situation, please dont give up
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    @Lulu_1949 this has nothing to do with defamation. It’s not the same type of case nor the same burden of proof. Legally if someone writes down something incorrect then it is incorrect. To prove it is a lie you would have to prove that it was done deliberately. That is near impossible to prove legally as it requires you to go inside someone’s head and prove their motivation. All you can prove is that it was incorrect. You can’t prove why they did it. So, no, legally they are not the same thing at all.

    Even if you have a recording you need to distinguish between opinion and fact. If you assert you need watching over cos of falls but the HCP disagrees and writes down that you do not that’s not “incorrect” (although an awful lot of people here wrongly think it’s just the job of a HCP to write down what they say) it’s just a difference of opinion. However, if they measure your muscle flexing at 15 degrees; can be heard confirming that on tape and then write down 25 degrees you can still only show that what they wrote was incorrect. You can’t prove why they did it. It could have just as easily been an honest mistake. 

    The reason I repeatedly challenge the use of the word on here is that 

    a) I know that legally you can’t prove it, and 

    b) write the word liar down or use it an appeal and you instantly undermine the credibility of your own evidence and of you as a witness because you’re asserting something you cannot prove. It’s not what will win someone PIP and it can damage the evidence that could. You sound angry and churlish and bitter. If you can’t get past that you won’t be seen as a good witness and nor will you approach such things so relaxed that you’ll give your best evidence. 
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    How do I know? It’s my area of work and has been for a long time. I’ve yet to come across anyone working in the field nationally who would say its worse across the board. It is not. Of course there are exceptions but they are just that. 

    I’ve already acknowledged that your experiences is your experience. That does not make it the majority experience. A fact acknowledged by the Work and Pensions committee who, after having the largest response in history, could still only conclude that there was an issue in a significant minority of cases. Since lockdown, telephone assessments have generally been better for people and ditto telephone appeals. People don’t tend to come online and describe what a great experience they had so you won’t be reading that here unless people who have dealt with more than their own case and some stuff on a forum say so. 

    You might want to read some of my other posts on here before you comment further. My final sentence was “ Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.”. To answer your question it was addressed to those who wish to have a successful outcome regardless of their HCP experience. 

    Over the past 7 years of PIP it can be demonstrably shown to be good advice; the most likely advice you’ll get from a welfare rights adviser and absolutely legally correct. It’s also a line used by tribunals. Weakening one piece of evidence which goes against you does just that. Nothing else. When the tribunal then turn round and conclude that, despite that, you’re not entitled because the rest of your evidence was insufficient? What then? So, that sentence? Great advice. Actually possibly the best single piece of advice on getting PIP you will ever get. 

    You are absolutely free to disregard it. 
    Who exactly are you working for? It would be interesting to know where you are coming from. 
    You dont seem concerned about exceptions,  unfair treatment and denied suppport?  
    Im not interested in the majority and more than likley either are those similarly unfairly treated on here.  The majority is not relevent here, that is the point you miss. 
    Im not interested in your statistics, and you also tend to state the obvious.  
    What would be helpful is getting the unfairness recognised and having the DPW acknowledge the current difficulties with telephone consultations.  They could provide some additional fall back route for those who think they are adversly affected by the procedures put in place during this current viral pandemic, before they need to ask for a MR.   
    “ Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.” This is not something I have in mind or have expressed, so where are you coming from? Again, this states the obvious.   
    Im bringing my experience of the telephone consultation to this forum to share with others who have also been unfairly treated by the telephone consultations.  This is what this Forum Topic is about.  Hopefully it can bring it to peoples attension and get some consideration from the DWP.  It should be clear that not all of us are happy with the outcome of the telephone consultatuions and we are looking for help and relevent advise. 

     



  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    Ditto well  said. And if you look at how many actually  get an award.!! Itsnot many.  
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    Bottom line? Tribunals aren’t interested in your view of the HCP and will want to hear minimally about the wrongs of the report. As stated above, proving entitlement to PIP is not done just by ripping apart a HCP report.

    If the DWP relies on the HCP Report,  you would then expect them to use it to uphold their decisions in a Tribunal.  As such, ripping up the HCP report might well be a considerable part of winning your case.  I think you would be fool to attend a Tribunal and not be prepared to do this.  If any part of the Report can be discredited then it will help place things more in your favour.    


  • katho31katho31 Posts: 694 Member
    Now calling people fools?? whats going on, why is this person allowed to post that??
  • dawny63dawny63 Member Posts: 37 Connected
    If it's not correct!! Written down wrong or LIES!! Obviously  someone wouldn't  just  accept  it.  If they deliberately  put words in your mouth or say you said something.  Why shouldn't  you say anything  to help  your case.
  • greenmangreenman Member Posts: 15 Listener
    katho31 said:
    Now calling people fools?? whats going on, why is this person allowed to post that??
    Im not calling anyone a fool, Im pointing out that the advise given by the relevent member is not something someone should rely on literally.  And that those attending Tribunals should be well prepared for their case by taking everything in to accout that is likley to be relied apon to reject your case.  
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 6,009 Disability Gamechanger
    Hmm. @greenman. Please take a tad more care to not put up posts where your words are enclosed in a quote which looks like it wholly comes from me. Thank you. 

    To take your points in turn:

    You can read elsewhere on here what I do. My entire career is founded on a concern about “unfair treatment”! I’m not missing any point about the majority at all. The point I’m making is that it’s not legally possible to prove that a HCP lied and, more importantly, that it can damage a case. If I post the obvious it because it’s not actually obvious to most posters here e.g. @dawny63 suggests not many get awards yet the DWP stats show the exact opposite and there’s an overspend on PIP because more people are getting it than originally anticipated. 

    You came here looking for help and relevant advice. You also say (although you wrongly attribute it to me) 

    “If the DWP relies on the HCP Report, you would then expect them to use it to uphold their decisions in a Tribunal.  As such, ripping up the HCP report might well be a considerable part of winning your case.  I think you would be fool to attend a Tribunal and not be prepared to do this.  If any part of the Report can be discredited then it will help place things more in your favour.”

    and you want to know where I’m coming from. Well that’s easy. My “relevant” advice to anyone who has a bad experience with an assessment is as already stated. “Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP.”

    I wonder if you’ve ever been to an appeal hearing? DWP rarely turn up to appeals and mostly rely upon a template based written submission. Moreover when DWP POs do turn up I’ve yet to hear of a single one actively try to defend a HCP report to any extent. 

    My long experience is that anyone who goes into a tribunal room where “ripping up the HCP report might well be a considerable part” of the case will struggle on a number of fronts. 

    1 - you are largely kicking at an open door with tribunals. They know how poor HCP reports can be. The point does not need labouring.

    2 - most tribunals are listed for 20 to 40 minutes and have to take your verbal evidence on both components in that time amongst many tasks. They neither need nor will tolerate someone picking apart one piece of evidence at length. Anyone who attempts that gets pretty short shrift. 

    3 - one member of the tribunal is a medical professional. Many will have already highlighted issues with the HCP report when previewing a case. As I said already, “kicking at an open door” . However, those medical professionals who do have some faith in said reports are people you need onside. Nothing will persuade them less than calling one of their profession a liar and trying to work through a long list of errors. Far from being a fool if you turn up and don’t do that, the exact opposite is the reality. 

    You assert that discrediting a report will “help place things more in your favour”. My points are that 

    - discrediting can be done easily by highlighting a couple of things which are demonstrably wrong. Calling people liars is neither needed nor helpful and ditto listing errors on every page.

    - where that is done a tribunal will give less weight to the report but they won’t automatically disregard it no matter how many complaints are made. Tribunals make decisions on the balance of probabilities and this their job is to weigh evidence not totally ignore it.

    - it absolutely does not follow that a discredited report will ‘help place things more in your favour”. A tribunal looks at all the evidence. You might have a claim pack, a GP letter, a consultants report and so on but it’s not a case of saying 3 v 1 or assuming those people must know you better (often not true). It’s a case of looking at what each says and then hearing your own verbal evidence. A tribunal can look at all the evidence other than the HCP report and still conclude there’s no entitlement to PIP. Thus my banal little statement which you appear to think of as irrelevant is actually totally on point. 

    - @dawny63 asks why you wouldn’t say highlight lies to help your case. I hope these points might give pause for thought on that. The HCP report might be appalling. Going into masses of detail on that will not automatically help your case as per the hyphenated points above. Once again then... 

    “Proving a HCP wrong is not how you get PIP”. 

    A successful PIP claim is not built around a reaction to a HCP report. It’s built around a high quality claim pack; medical evidence if relevant (and it often isn’t) and especially good quality anecdotal evidence i.e. the stories you tell to describe real world things which have happened when you attempted each points scoring activity relevant to your case. I hope that clarifies it.
  • Chloe_ScopeChloe_Scope Scope Posts: 10,652 Disability Gamechanger
    Please be mindful and respectful of other members. Thanks.
    Community Partner
    Scope

    Tell us what you think?
    Complete our feedback form to help us to improve your community.
Sign in or join us to comment.