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PIP appeal problem
Shaun_Hobbs
Member Posts: 21 Connected
In january 2020 at southend magistates court i appealed against a PIP decision,
i lost the appeal after the judge used a letter that contained a list of machines
i tried to use at the Cluny HUBs free gym.the list had been clipped and a later
date added and then photo copied by a person unknown presumably at the DLA,this
was then presented at the appeal without my having previously seen it or having
been sent a copy of the altered document by the Courts,the altered list was then
used to suggest i had written i could walk for miles,ride two bikes and paddle a
canoe,i was not given the oppertunity to refute how the content was presented and
mearly asked by the judge (who i know and dislikes me) to read the selected passage
without being asked for an explanation of what was written,when i tried to ask about
the context of the page the judge ended the appeal and told me to leave the court,
later that day i phoned the Court of Appeal and they sent me an upper court appeal
form.I have macular degeneration and have had two strokes so my writing is almost
unreadable so i took the letter to the CAB Southend to compleat,i was told to first
contact the courts and ask for a statement of reasons this i did and after i received
it back took it to the CAB,in the statement she used the altered passage (i can walk
about about a mile) as the main reason for refusing my appeal for mobility allowance,
The woman who specialized in DLA cases (Mrs B.) had taken some days off work,so
photocopies of my documents were taken at the CAB and i was asked for any other documents
i had in regards to the case.i returned the paperwork to the CAB a few day later and
was told the court had already sent them the evidence that had been used at the tribunal
included the altered list,i phoned the CAB every few days and was told it was being
looked into by the expert and allow a few weeks,these passed without any further contact
from the CAB and with only two week left to appeal and the CAB having the altered letter
i visited the office again,i met Mrs B. and was asked for any documents i had in
connnection with the case,i told her they already had them and i wanted them back she
told me they had lost them!,she said i quote ''ill have a rummage round and try to find them''.
On the 25th March i received a letter from Mrs B. telling me she had finally had
an answer from the court saying it was too late to appeal and from the 20th of March she
was working from home,i phoned the Court of Appeal and was told Mrs B. had made no
contact with them at any point in time and it was not too late to appeal,the courts were
very upset but fortunatly i had two days left,however due to the Covid-19 lockdown my
appeal would be put on hold until i could get my paperwork back from the CAB affices,i
have phoned the CAB office dozens of times and visited at least five with no answer.
i lost the appeal after the judge used a letter that contained a list of machines
i tried to use at the Cluny HUBs free gym.the list had been clipped and a later
date added and then photo copied by a person unknown presumably at the DLA,this
was then presented at the appeal without my having previously seen it or having
been sent a copy of the altered document by the Courts,the altered list was then
used to suggest i had written i could walk for miles,ride two bikes and paddle a
canoe,i was not given the oppertunity to refute how the content was presented and
mearly asked by the judge (who i know and dislikes me) to read the selected passage
without being asked for an explanation of what was written,when i tried to ask about
the context of the page the judge ended the appeal and told me to leave the court,
later that day i phoned the Court of Appeal and they sent me an upper court appeal
form.I have macular degeneration and have had two strokes so my writing is almost
unreadable so i took the letter to the CAB Southend to compleat,i was told to first
contact the courts and ask for a statement of reasons this i did and after i received
it back took it to the CAB,in the statement she used the altered passage (i can walk
about about a mile) as the main reason for refusing my appeal for mobility allowance,
The woman who specialized in DLA cases (Mrs B.) had taken some days off work,so
photocopies of my documents were taken at the CAB and i was asked for any other documents
i had in regards to the case.i returned the paperwork to the CAB a few day later and
was told the court had already sent them the evidence that had been used at the tribunal
included the altered list,i phoned the CAB every few days and was told it was being
looked into by the expert and allow a few weeks,these passed without any further contact
from the CAB and with only two week left to appeal and the CAB having the altered letter
i visited the office again,i met Mrs B. and was asked for any documents i had in
connnection with the case,i told her they already had them and i wanted them back she
told me they had lost them!,she said i quote ''ill have a rummage round and try to find them''.
On the 25th March i received a letter from Mrs B. telling me she had finally had
an answer from the court saying it was too late to appeal and from the 20th of March she
was working from home,i phoned the Court of Appeal and was told Mrs B. had made no
contact with them at any point in time and it was not too late to appeal,the courts were
very upset but fortunatly i had two days left,however due to the Covid-19 lockdown my
appeal would be put on hold until i could get my paperwork back from the CAB affices,i
have phoned the CAB office dozens of times and visited at least five with no answer.
The girls at the HUB helped me wth this until the lockdwn,now i have no one.
[Names removed by moderator]
[Names removed by moderator]
Replies
Welcome to our online community/family.
I am one of a number of Community Champion’s here at Scope.
Sorry to here about your “pip benefit journey”
We have got a member who is very knowledgeable when it comes to Benefit’s.
Hi @poppy123456
Sorry but I just come across this pip post.
They have had a right time with there pip benefit & they are in need of both help & advice!!!!!!
@steve51
The Hub gym shut in march and I had my supervised physio cancelled the very same week it started at the hospital that was after a five year wait.
Oddly enough i wrote out a list of my objections and mistakes in both of the assesments and gave each member of the bench a copy,she glaced at it the threw aside and said ''I dont need this,i have everything i need in the assesors report''.
i used four machines at the gym,as such,see below.
I can walk about one mile
I can ride about one mile
i can ride about one mile
I can row about one mile
A full explanation was originally written on the back of the piece of paper,i used
this note as my writing was so bad and this was already made out before i had
my stroke,in court someone had photocopied just the four lines and not the reverse
containing the explantion and wrote a date of 1019 on it,the judge asked me to read
the first line and nothing else saying 'i cannot read your writing'' then ended the
tribunal then and there without letting me question were the letter came from or how
it was presented.
I started to question it and was interupted by the DLA DR who suggested ''You mean you
can walk one mile with your painkillers'' i said no and was told to leave the court.
The tribunals aren't paid by the DWP by the way, they're part of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service which are entirely independent of the DWP and PIP.
What explanation was written on the back of the piece of paper? If you can walk about one mile you wouldn't be eligible for the mobility part of PIP as the limit is only being able to walk 200 metres reliably, repeatedly and safely, if you can walk a mile at a time they would so no to that I'm pretty sure.
Since then I have had to reapply for DLA once and switch to PIP. On both attempts I had a person from DWP visit me at home and fill the forms in for me. Both were successful because the people didn't just take my word for simple things but made me consider everything I automatically did without thinking, which also made things more difficult than even I considered.
I only applied at all the first time because when I asked my doctor if I was disabled he said "Yes, and you have been for about a year". The total time from start to finish was about 4 and a half years.
If I hadn't been able to understand and contest the Statement of Reasons or if the lady at the CAB hadn't had that friend I probably still wouldn't have got help.
The system is detestable and even worse now than it was then.
TK
1 - calling a judge and medical professional “arses” suggests you’re entering the tribunal room with an idea of what their role is that is removed from the reality. As observed in the other thread people generally (not always but generally) get the appeal hearing they deserve in terms of how much they attempted to understand the PIP regs and the role of a tribunal.
2 - KingKongsFinger said: Both the above statements are wrong and misleading for other posters. The PIP regs, guidance and caselaw paint a pretty clear picture on most descriptors and certainly the ref you reference doesn’t say what you say it does. Your zero points comes from
“ 2. Moving around.
a. Can stand and then move more than 200 metres, either aided or unaided. 0 points.”
As regards the original post on this thread then I’m afraid this looks like another case of authoring your own misfortune and desperately needing advice and representation. My expectation is that anyone with macular degeneration and presumably with explicit and ongoing consequences of a stroke would comfortably qualify for both components for PIP for at least 3 to 5 years but, depending on how far advanced the MD is, could potentially qualify on that alone. The fact you’re able to post here and also lost the appeal suggests to me not so much an injustice as at least a question mark as to the severity of your conditions at present. Something that would need to be discussed further with an adviser at minimum.
As regards documents you’d not seen before I’m afraid I’m not convinced we’re getting the full picture here. If you’d not seen it before you could have asked for an adjournment to consider your response. If you’d not seen it before how could you know it had been “altered”? Tribunals do not spring new evidence on appellants on the day without offering the chance to adjourn. I’m afraid this part of the tale lacks sufficient detail or credibility to comment on further.
1 - you may wish to query with your local CA why the deadline was missed and why a late application was not made? That’s between you and them.
2 - you did not need anything back from CA in order to pursue the matter yourself. The UT1 form is available online and you could get a further copy of both your appeal paints and the statement of reasons by contacting HMCTS. C-19 really doesn’t come into play. This may well still be rectifiable but you will need to move quickly.
Do you need aids around the house to help you complete the daily living activities? So do you need an aid to help you cook a meal, or do you need an aid to help you shower? Those are what they are asking you to explain.
What was on the explanation on the back of the illegal/forged note the judge was given? And can you prove that it was altered? If you're looking for better advice than what Mike has given you then you're going to need to pay for a solicitor.
When Mike stated “MD” I’m pretty certain he was using the initials for macular degeneration.....not referring to an alternative term for a GP etc. It might be an idea to for you to also “read it again” 😳
You should be able to get a copy of the note or any other part of the papers from the DWP submission by contacting them.
No one should be frightened to express their opinion and if people disagree violently they should either skip to the next post without commenting or block and / or report something they believe to be inflammatory and leave it up to the mods to decide.
Mike is right about one thing though, other people should not volunteer people into commenting except by posting to that persons wall "I'd appreciate it if you would check out this post" and leave it to the person to decide whether they are busy elsewhere or not. Pressure should never be applied to others to comment.
We all have differing views and needs, use intelligence to sort things out and not inflammatory speeches.
Anyone dislikes my comments use my wall, not this post to say so.
TK
Sounds to me that you were not given a fair trial. Article 6 of the Human Rights Act, covers both Criminal, Civil and tribunal proceedings. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-6-right-fair-trial
Being that your situation may well be a Human Rights violation you should be able to get full funding for a solicitor. Tell the CAB to do one and seek legal Aid. Then find yourself a Human Rights specialist.
You should get quick results from that.
All the best
Andy
I've nothing further to say on this thread/
TK
Agreed,and im glad you resolved the problem,.
The expert at Southend CAB is i believe,a plant,in the case that i won against
the DHSS she told me to drop the court case because i would not win and to make
a new claim,even more strange was the fact i had a letter from ATOS admitting
they caused the problem by cancelling my appointment,this time she wasted 3 months
before telling me to give up and make another new claim,she also said my money
would be back dated if i was granted PIP,however she failed to mention that that
only covered the benifit they awarded me,so if i only recieved Daily living i
would lose all the mobility for nearly 4 years.
It is okay to disagree but please remember to comment on the content of the post, rather than the poster.
Scope
If you have a few minutes to spare, we'd appreciate your feedback on our online community.
If the DWP were happy to produce a redacted letter (fraud) to a lower court without
giving the HM Courts & Tribunals notice or a copy i doubt they would send the original
back to the very person who would in all likelihood be giving it straight to the Upper
Court as evidence of that fraud.
And here you seriously suggest they would provide evidence against themselves?
Ask for your original evidence back or copies of it.
Ask for copies of any other information that they have received from any other 3rd party.
Ask for a brief statement to why they are unable to provide this information to you. I find the use of a Pre-Written tick box high beneficial in the past. All they need to do is tick a statement which best describes the situation. IE. You can create a statement with a tick box stating Information sort has been lost / cannot be found. and Source of information and who to contact leaving a little space.
If they are unable to provide you with the evidence, the source, and or no copies are available then there is no case against you. Although the same can be said the other way around as your technically the injured party the burden of prove is on them and not you.
All you need to do is prove that you have done everything you can in your power to obtain the documents. DWP for one has to legally hold all records in your case for several years possibly life as they are the DWP. Similar to medical records
I would also suggest that you look at the online assessment and be truthful to yourself when completing.
https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/personal-independence-payment-pip/pip-self-test
The list of equipment which they state you have used may well be accurate or may not be. In your own admission you say you can use 4 out of 5 machines to some level of degree. I wish that I could use a single one of them but I cant. Pip is intended as an additional payment to help with daily difficulties although you might not meet the criteria you may meet the criteria of other benefits. A benefits advisor may assist you. but your get a lot of up-to-date information from that site above to help you
All the best
Andy
[Removed by moderator - no longer relevant]
In response to earlier comments.
1 - I can’t see if my post has been reported as spam but as the OP has MD I’m happy to give the benefit of the doubt as to intent. The buttons are not what I would call user-friendly nor accessible. I note the abusive post aimed at me but as someone else has reported it I don’t see the need to comment further at this stage.
3 - You described 2 scenarios in which you and your judge had encountered each other previously. The moment you were aware who it was you should have requested a postponement. The fact you went ahead anyway harms your case.
4 - It’s now apparent there is no forged/illegal note here. There has been a simple clerical failure to make an accurate photocopy and on the day it became apparent the bundles didn't match and you didn’t have what the panel had. At that point you should have requested an adjournment. It also needs to be said again that this is unlikely to be DWP deceiving HMCTS. This is much more likely to be a photocopying **** up by a HMCTS clerk. It’s not uncommon. Again, the failure to do so harms your case.
- verbally explain that the appeal papers differed
- verbally explain that the panel had a sheet he did not
- verbally explain that the sheet in question had not been fully copied
- verbally explain what was on the missing side.
Why does this matter? Because if the missing note was written by someone else then there’s no need to complete a UT1. An application to HMCTS for a set aside of the decision on the basis that a document was missing could be done and would have a small shot at succeeding. If the side was written by Shaun then there’s likely no set aside because he remained in the tribunal room to be asked about what was on there. A set aside is a much quicker process than an application to UT.
Now, onto other matters:
Going by the comments being made here by Shaun about his personal case, and admitting we are all 3rd parties here to the tribunal and basing our responses on his information alone. I partially agree with your comment if there was a mess up with Shauns bundle then there could be a potential negligence claim. Although from what he has also indicated there could still remain the Rights to a Fair Trial issue.
Enthuses on COULD
in either case Shaun should be able to qualify for legal aid and he really needs to seek legal advice. I think we can all agree on that and hope that he has gained some useful insight
I have to agree that the UT1 form is the best way forward for Shaun. However he commented that he has trouble with these forms and needs help to complete them. His local CAB has let him down.
So what would your advice be, if he cannot like most of us afford legal advice, have someone who can fill in these forms and to prepare for an Upper Tribunal of which you need to prove that your case has merit in the first place for the court to consider the application.
Our legal system is not perfect, it is also driven by both Common Law and Parliamentary law. The Human Rights elements do play a considerable rule in shaping our laws. If Shaun is correct that his documents have been tampered with then there MAY be an issue, be it Human Rights or Civil procedures etc.
Shaun should be exploring all avenues and deciding what is the right avenue or avenues as he may need to call on more then one option depending on the facts of his case. Furthermore there is no harm in at least trying to apply for legal aid which will save him a considerable amount of stress if he is successful.
I dont feel that I have given any bad advice - but I will say that the UT1 form is the only way forward. What support he can get depends on what he applies for.
mikehughescq maybe the best person to direct your questions. From a legal stand point he may well have a solution in order for you to get your information back from the CAB.
I would make sure that the courts are fully aware of your situation, keep records, copies of letters and to opt to send them by email as you will also have a digital signature.
Make sure in your correspondence that you highlight that these are unprecedented times due to Covid-19, that you do not have usual access which has slowed the processes and that you are without legal representation. These are all important facts that needs to be recorded in your correspondence.
all the best and I hope you get things sorted out ASAP
Hmm,i followed your tip about legal aid submitted my details to the gov.com site
and found i qualified and it then gave me the number of a place,ill ring on tuesday
morning when i visit DIAL in the town.
If anyone else wants it here it is.
Third Floor
Kingsley House
37-39 Balmoral Road Gillingham ME7 4PF
Helpline: 01634 383 760
Thanks Andy,this extends to others who offered sensible advice.
I think this thread is going beyond the bounds of our Scope community so I have flagged it up, for mods to consider.
Please stay safe and kind.
We are all going through a dreadful period of our lifetime.
Best wishes
Can you review this thread.
i was thinking the same keep seeing it come up on my emails and I really can’t understand most of it and I don’t really see where it’s going no offence to any one here I think I have just lost what’s this is all bout .
we all have different illnesses and opinions and I think we should all understand I think any one has a right to speak there mind with helpful or factual information Or to lend a kind supportive ear . I’m new to scope and I like the positivity and the fact we all help each other as well as fighting our own personal battles . but I think this thread has gone to a point where it’s starting to get negative and I don’t even understand the thread and where it’s going . Please be kind Every one there’s so much crap going On in the world this should be a safe place to express our opinions please no one be horrible to Me for my opinion I just really have no clue to what this is about now or where it’s going .
It’s also worth saying that there’s nothing in here beyond the scope of this site. It’s a disability benefit case which went to first tier tribunal and lost. It now needs an application to UT and/or a set aside. That’s not frequent on here but it’s also not especially unusual. Whilst people have, with the best of intentions, attempted to broaden that out by mentioning negligence or the HRA neither appear relevant on the facts as posted. That’s pretty much where we are at present.
The 2 errors of law most likely to float here are breach of natural justice, or, the tribunal making a decision which was unsupported by the evidence i.e. perversity. You lay that out in the UT1; tell the story as has been posted here (albeit perhaps in shorter form and with more clarity and less emotive language) and your application is done. The more this is delayed waiting for something which is not needed the less the chances a late application will be allowed.
2 - as regards legal aid in the context of this thread I see it as nothing more than a gigantic red herring.
”Whether you qualify for legal aid will depend on:
1 - there is no human rights element here. None at all.
2 - Citizens Advice national helpline can talk him through UT1 completion.
3 - the document was not “tampered with”. Someone put it into the appeal bundle for the panel. It should have been in Shaun’s appeal bundle but it wasn’t. When he realised the panel had it but he didn’t he also realised that they only had 1 side not 2. That will be a good old fashioned photocopying error by HMCTS. Happens fairly regularly. It’s unfortunate but it’s not negligent or a breach of the right to a fair trial or a discrimination issue.
Sounds like You had the same problems I am having
That's awful, so they take what the assessor says without question and We have no way of disputing it, yeah really fair that is......
Yeah this sucks, I'll be bringing that up too.......
For the daily living part, can you cook unaided, or shower unaided? If you can't, what aids do you use?
Like I said before the dwp don't look at your diagnosis, they look at how the condition actually affects you. I've got chronic fatigue syndrome myself, but everyone with it is affected differently which is why they don't give you PIP purely based on diagnosis. I'm on the moderate/severe scale of the condition but there are others who can lead normal lives, and others who have to stay in a dark room in their bed 24/7. It wouldn't be fair to give the person leading a normal life the PIP as they would not need the extra money to get through their day. Whereas someone like myself, who has to pay extra to get someone to clean my home, look after my daughter and get food delivered would need the extra money to help me day to day.
Firstly shaun I am glad that you had qualified, you should be able to know get sound one to one legal advise and be able to discuss your claim / tribunal in full. If anything it will put your mind at ease.
Secondly, Mike has given you the UT1 information. This is vital should you want to take your case to the Upper Tribunal, please don`t ignore his advice.
We are here to help each other and from my own experience its is better to have plans and options in place as well as having a plan A, B and C.
Only you know the details of your case what went wrong and what you hopped to achieve.
I do however share the comments made about the mobility aspect - but I do not know you or your full story, I assume that there is more to it. But lets draw a line under it now
All the best