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Woodbine

poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
edited February 21 in Coffee lounge
I have remained in contact with some friends i've made here since i left. One person being @woodbine who i've known for a few years from another forum. This kind hearted gentleman is such a lovely man, whom i have the upmost respect for. Last night he emailed me because he was so distraught and extremely upset by what had happened here on the community yesterday. He wanted me to see something he wanted to post here but didn't know if admin would let it through and he was correct, it hasn't been posted, which is extremely sad. A grown man being treated like a little child! I asked him if he wanted me to post it on his behalf and he said he would be very grateful if i could, so here it is.... just incase anyone is wondering, no i haven't returned, i'm here purely to support my dearest friend... John. Hugs to both you and Julie from me! <3

I'm not sure the moderators will sanction this as they have already refused to publish some of the help I have given tonight. But I wonder do they realise just how utterly degrading it is to go to the trouble of writing out a reply only to see that it won't be published until "somebody" approves it? It makes me feel like a three year old.

I'm told my moderation will last until they think I am a fit and proper person to partake in the usual way, that makes me feel sick to my stomach, this whole thing is making me feel ill. All at a time when I have the threat of being told I have cancer dangling over my head.

I'm also threatened with being told I am to be chucked off scope, something that for me like many others has been a lifeline to me over the past year, and yet they think its there's to take from me.
You might ask why? Well it's all because I dare from time to time call it as i see it, no mention of the hundreds of my post that have been flagged as "liked" or inspiring, that's all gone in the scope dustbin.

I hope who does hold this power over me has the bottle to "approve" this post and that the real powers that be read it and realise exactly what has been done to me here.

I hope I get the chance to be with you again, but if I don't then at least now you will know the reason, that being very simple some peoples mental welfare is thought to be more important to scope than mine.

good night
John

Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.

Replies

  • vikingqueenvikingqueen Member Posts: 357 Pioneering
        What a wonderful friend you are @poppy123456, it is such a shame that a few remarks have been taken out of context. @woodbine please don't despair too much you are a much appreciated member with a heart of gold. 
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 779 Pioneering
    edited February 21
    @poppy123456 @woodbine @chiarieds I just wanted to add my bit. Firstly it's lovely to see Poppy back even if it is only temporarily! Chiarieds great to see you too. I'm not sure who made the decision to 'moderate' Woodbine. It would have been bad enough at any time but to do this AFTER he has posted on this very forum that he has been given a 'rapid' hospital appointment in the following week. We are continually being told that Scope support people but they are doing the exact opposite in this case. I read another post earlier where Mike Hughes had posted and it really sounds like he is at the end of his tether. So Scope have managed to alienate Poppy, Woodbine, Chiarieds and Mike who are (in my humble opinion) 4 of the most knowledgeable disability gamechangers on this forum. (No disrespect to any of the other gamechangers meant). I have been on this forum for around 18 months and in that time these are 4 posters who until recently were always around to answer queries. Their knowledge is extensive. I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum who would not have received the correct benefits without their help. If they disappear WHO is going to fill the gap. I have always been amazed at their patience when suffering abuse from posters who don't like the answers they give but to think they may be driven off the board by the behaviour of the moderators is unbelievable. 


  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    I know people won't like me saying this but if any of us do anything wrong then we should be treated as everyone else 

    If some one was abusive to any of us then wouldn't we want something to be done  it works both ways 

    The only thing I can say is that an end date to the moderation should be given 

    No disrespect to people who have been here along time no one is perfect  and it doesn't mean that because someone has been here along time that they should be exempt from moderation 

    @woodbine this is not aimed at you this is in general  what I have learnt in life is that people are replacable other people will come along with the same knowledge  or better 

    There have been lots of polite notices for a few weeks and now action has been taken but if you go back over the threads  it's whst prople have asked for that action be taken  

     @woodbine hasn't been stopped from posting the posts just have to be checked first  I don't know how long that takes but it's a lesson to us all  
  • Sandy_123Sandy_123 Member Posts: 1,107 Pioneering
    @woodbine hopefully it will all be sorted out soon for you. Good luck next week at your appointment.
  • MarkN88MarkN88 Member Posts: 770 Pioneering
    How do you know other members that you perceive as doing something wrong have not been dealt with privately by the Scope team? No one would know this as it’s not made public. 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    @janer1967 I fully understand where your comring from  

    We are always being told not to reply to posts if they upset us get on our nerves and for whatever other reason  because then we come out with comments that are just as bad 

    People choose to leave they don't have to leave  as I have read on threads these people are welcome to  come back at anytime but if your friends it doesn't matter if they are on here or not it doesn't stop a friend ship  

    I am just haveing a discussion no disrespect to anyone and no malice 
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,366 Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 21
    I’ve read a lot of posts which I have had to ignore for the reasons outlined by @janer1967 and I’ve been hoping and trusting that they would be moderated in some way or other by the scope team. If I had interacted with the poster I would have been moderated myself so I’ve left it to the team. 

    Secondly, don’t we support the community by staying through thick and thin? Sometimes new posters are bound to appear who annoy or irritate us but the strength of the community is shown through Constance and perseverance  is it not. 

    Incidentally @cressida I became a disability Gamechanger by shear volume of posts and likes etc, not through merit, my input has and probably always will be negligible. I wish I knew more about the benefits system but unfortunately other than common sense suggestions I can’t really help in those matters. 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    janer1967 said:

    I am getting irritated and angered by some of the comments so will no longer contribute as I may say something I shouldn't taking advice to leave it there 

    Well said! i couldn't agree with you more. I didn't make this thread for some people to have a dig at others.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • CressCress Member Posts: 498 Pioneering
    @janer1967
    Also getting irritated and angry at some of the comments here.

    I can think of a couple of other members who should have been put under moderation for the God awful advice trotted out as fact and the permanently angry and rude about seemingly every organisation they have come into contact with.
    Would have made more sense to me.

    So sorry to read you're having to go through another health scare on top of all this @woodbine

    Take care pal.....
  • CressidaCressida Member Posts: 779 Pioneering
    @leeCal I tried to make it clear in my post that no disrespect meant to other game changers. You all do a great job. 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    And this is what happens when a perfectly normal discussion turns into people haveing a  go for no reason  
  • leeCalleeCal Member Posts: 3,366 Disability Gamechanger
    @Cressida, I completely understand and please don’t take offence, I meant none whatsoever. I was simply posting one day and suddenly I received the title, in my case it is without any real foundation as I’d be very surprised if I’d actually helped anyone at all as yet. Perhaps tomorrow 🙂
  • MarkN88MarkN88 Member Posts: 770 Pioneering
    Cressida said:
    @lisathomas50 this thread was started as a support to Woodbine.  Your comment appears to be putting the boot in. Sometimes its better to say nothing if you don't agree. 
    The thread was also started in relation to moderation, so course it’s going to get discussed. 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    @Cressida I am not putting the boot in I am putting things into perspective  that game changers aren't above anyone else 

    In a message received from woodbine  he doesn't expect to be treated differently  but equally  I have alot of respect for woodbine and he feels very humble for all  of your support 

    I am  just  haveing a discussion  and not haveing a dig or putting the boot in 
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    @Cress there are new people comeing on here all the time  people I have made  friends with have gone or stopped posting  but that's life  
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    Scope  can you please take @woodbine off moderation  so thst he can post as normal on Tuesday 

    At the moment woodbine is going through a rough time I think that not being able to post since yesterday  has been punishment enough 

    If you can let @woodbine post as normal from Tuesday  as  this week is going to be a tough time for him and he needs his friends on here 

    Myself and woodbine have had our ups and downs  but I still respect him  so I am asking that scope lift the moderation so that woodbine gets the support he needs  and is haveing investigations for cancer and needs that support  

    Thank you 😊
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    @poppy123456 you don't know me very well then 
  • poppy123456poppy123456 Member Posts: 22,218 Disability Gamechanger
    Lisa, i would apppreciate it if you stopped tagging me.
    Community champion and proud winner of the 2019 empowering others award. This award was given for supporting disabled people and their families for the benefit advice i have given to members here on the community.
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    I apologise 😔
  • mikehughescqmikehughescq Member Posts: 5,980 Disability Gamechanger
    edited February 22
    Good to see that moderation is finally being given the public scrutiny here that it deserves. I see no point on going over the points I’ve already made on this on other threads so please allow me to add a different perspective. 

    The fundamental issues here are the absolutely shambolic lack of transparency over moderation and the dreadful standard of moderation itself. 

    There is apparently a four stage model of moderation. Took me the best part of five years here to learn that. Even then, only because I asked why two weeks moderation had turned into three months. 

    Where is that on the site? Er, it isn’t. I’ve been in moderation for long periods at least three times. That has usually been because people didn’t like my tone. Two issues with that. Firstly it was not clear whether the complainant was a poster or Scope themselves. In one sense it doesn’t matter but when you realise that “tone” is not detailed in the site T&Cs then the alarm bells start ringing. Was there a complainant or was the complainant actually Scope? If the latter then you’re not applying a policy. You’re basically just making something up to justify your own discomfort. 

    Every time I have tried to pin Scope down to a simple “which words breach what?” They’ve nothing to say. Obviously not. What can they say when they’re not referring to the T&Cs when moderating.

    That has certainly been the case recently when I find myself repeatedly pointing out to mods that they’re reprimanding people for something for which they have no actual policy. Selectively attacking people on the basis of facts which are not factual would, in any other context, be rightly called prejudice or bullying. Let us then call it what it is. If you’re a moderator on here and you’re warning people on “tone” you are asking people to adhere to a policy you’ve not yet written. You are bringing your own judgement
    and prejudices to bear and, whilst judgement is a part of moderation, prejudice and a lack of self awareness about what you do and don’t comment on most certainly isn’t. 

    The current policy of allowing all kinds of abuse but editing them out to allow questions to be posted is untenable; beyond ridiculous and, frankly, we should publicly ridicule it at every opportunity. The utterly insane internal logic to that is that if Trump asked on here what people thought of nuclear treaties but did so using racist or inflammatory language Facebook or Twitter would pull the post but Scope would edit it and allow publication. As we have seen with two abusive posters these last few days what more encouragement to continue could there be!

    So, onto the specific matter of this thread. I know no-one on here outside of here although in a few cases I suspect I would be delighted to do so. Important to mention this in the context of @woodbine as I don’t know him; kind of assumed he was a him but you can never know for sure online and, much to my delight, he and I don’t always agree. The key thing is that when we disagree we explain why and we do so politely. Where we agree we say so and where we don’t we have never yet escalated it into anything. 

    I say that to preface comments with which he may disagree and hope he’ll understand that I am trying to be scrupulously fair without necessarily feeling obliged to be balanced.

    1 - whilst I note that the timing of his being placed into moderation is not exactly great I don’t think it fair to Scope to try and make an argument that serious illness is a reason to avoid moderation. I also think the warning over removal has perhaps been over-interpreted. I’ve had those warnings and whilst I take them seriously I also recognise them as standard “oh and we gotta say this bit too”. In some cases it will be the next step. Mostly it will not.

    2 - similarly I don’t think that the number of likes or recognitions as insightful should count for anything as regards moderation else we get into “I only threatened to kill them the once. I am normally magnificent” territory. I score well on both counts but so what. 

    I have found it immensely frustrating to be moderated and watch as people give others incomplete or plain dumb answers whilst my accurate answer sits on moderation for a week or more, but assuming for a second Scope night be right to put me into moderation, it’s my problem if that frustration then arises but highlights a fundamental lack of knowledge within the forum. I’d love to buy into the idea that new people will always come along. Five years here tells me that not only is that not necessarily so but there simply aren’t enough numbers for the volume of queries either way. It is absolutely true that no-one is irreplaceable but it’s also true that, actually, when your forum design is so flawed it relies on a handful of people to perform miracles each day then effectively you’ve built your model on people being irreplaceable like it or not. Poppy is no more irreplaceable than I. There are plenty more out there like us, but, here there are most definitely not more like us here and nor will they magically be along soon. Here, we have, through an accident of design, become irreplaceable. You either need us to hang around or rethink your model or both. At present, none of those things are happening. 

    Scope could not be less competent on managing such scenarios and it illustrates once again just how under resourced this site is. It continues to have none of the things in place to run such a forum. Nevertheless there are balances to be struck.

    3 - despite the comments above, the timing of putting @woodbine into moderation could not be worse or less competent. I have not seen him be racist, sexist, homophobic or abusive. Posters who regularly resort to such are “edited” but @woodbine is in full moderation. Now, that could absolutely be because of other earlier aberrations (and none of us are in a position to know that) but that seems unlikely to me as it does others. It can’t be ruled out but what seems more likely? That any previous incidents were personal abuse or over zealous targeting by Scope. I know which one I’d put money on. 

    It has been suggested to me that in the absence of Adrian some of the other mods have let the power go to their heads. It is perhaps a tad more nuanced than that. Not much though. If you have no competent rules; years of mis-rule and almost everything you do supports people with experience leaving then whilst the cats away the mice are less playing than trying to play whack a mole with a problem they plainly have no grip on at all. 

    What does it say that two experienced posters who had stepped away have to step back to challenge the poor treatment of an experienced poster because the mods who should be offering that protection are instead embarking on a form of cleansing of the forum of any competence they find wherever they find it? It probably says that breaking point approaches.
  • lisathomas50lisathomas50 Member Posts: 3,840 Disability Gamechanger
    Mike if woodbine had been suspended instead of moderated would that of made things any better? I am just asking the question 

    On other sites yes people get suspended  but that is what is different about scope they try to treat us like adults and hope that when a polite warning is either posted on here or by email  that we take it on board 

    Which ever way you look at it on this forum we all come under the same rules so anyone of us can be put under moderation 

    From what I can gather I could be wrong its woodbines first time on moderation it has resly upset him and from what has been said a bit of shock

    I have asked for woodbine to be taken off moderation due to him haveing news that he does need support for from friends  and the people on the forum  

    It's not that I don't agree with moderation and if I was put on moderation I would accept it and move on from it  

    If scope do remove woodbine from moderation  and woodbine  breached the rules after it was lifted then nothing could be said as woodbine knows what the consequences  are and knows what is expected  and hope that woodbine would accept that would happen 

    The only reason this thread is happening is because woodbine chose to let people know through another person and also on private message and that is fine there is nothing wrong with that 

    As long as its discussed in a fair manner and not as above in only a couple of posts mentioning other posters  and haveing a go becsuse they don't like what another poster had said 

    What people need to decide in my opinion is do people want scope to take action when posters break the rules and conditions if they do then people have to face the consequences  
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,926

    Scope community team

    edited February 22
    Following numerous reports this thread is now closed, pending review. 

    A few quick notes:
    While I don't know the minutiae of why Woodbine is on moderation, even when I do, we will not be engaging in a public discussion regarding this as we've always had a policy of confidentiality. He is certainly not the only active member on moderation. However, I will try to reply to specific queries regarding the process or suggestions for improvement.

    I'd also like to add, whatever the circumstances, circumventing moderation by creating additional accounts, or having friends post content on behalf of another member who is on moderation (however well-intentioned) is not acceptable.

    The moderation process takes time and we aim to review and post messages within 24 hours. The post in question was initially posted outside of staff hours and is still sat in a queue waiting to be reviewed.
    Scope like every organisation, is juggling furloughed staff, reduced hours, staff leave, holidays and illness and yesterday none of the team were available, although I did pop on briefly in my own time to check for safeguarding issues and approved a few simple posts from the moderation queue.

    As a side note: I don't start until 9 and it appears I have a lot of catching up to do and am the only team member on shift until much later so it may take a little longer to review this thread than usual.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,748 Disability Gamechanger
    I am truly grateful to @poppy123456 for coming back to support me, words cannot explain how much I appreciate it.
    I would also like to thank other people who have emailed their support.
    John x
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,748 Disability Gamechanger
    I have written a reply to this thread which so far hasn't had approval?
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,748 Disability Gamechanger
    I keep trying to reply to these messages of support but they are getting past the moderators.
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • woodbinewoodbine Member Posts: 3,748 Disability Gamechanger
    I'm not sure the moderators will sanction this as they have already refused to publish some of the help I have given tonight. But I wonder do they realise just how utterly degrading it is to go to the trouble of writing out a reply only to see that it won't be published until "somebody" approves it? It makes me feel like a three year old.

    I'm told my moderation will last until they think I am a fit and proper person to partake in the usual way, that makes me feel sick to my stomach, this whole thing is making me feel ill. All at a time when I have the threat of being told I have cancer dangling over my head.

    I'm also threatened with being told I am to be chucked off scope, something that for me like many others has been a lifeline to me over the past year, and yet they think its there's to take from me.
    You might ask why? Well it's all because I dare from time to time call it as i see it, no mention of the hundreds of my post that have been flagged as "liked" or inspiring, that's all gone in the scope dustbin.

    I hope who does hold this power over me has the bottle to "approve" this post and that the real powers that be read it and realise exactly what has been done to me here.

    I hope I get the chance to be with you again, but if I don't then at least now you will know the reason, that being very simple some peoples mental welfare is thought to be more important to scope than mine.

    good night
    John
    my advice is given freely and is correct to the best of my knowledge.
  • Adrian_ScopeAdrian_Scope Testing team Posts: 7,926

    Scope community team

    Firstly, I'd like to apologise to @woodbine and others for how long they've waited for post approval this weekend.
    As mentioned, sadly the community team were not available yesterday so his posts (and those of other members currently on moderation) were sat in a queue until we looked at them today.

    I do however stand by my earlier comment that circumventing moderation is not acceptable. I'm sure many of us remember certain members who were placed on moderation (or banned) and would return on new accounts or have friends post to circumvent the moderation policy. It wasn't acceptable then (and many of you were quick to complain), and while the circumstances may seem different, the rules, as everybody is quick to state, should be applied universally. 

    That said, it's been touching to see all of the support Woodbine has been offered here and this is the community I remember and we should all strive to be - one that bands together.
    MarkN88 said:
    How do you know other members that you perceive as doing something wrong have not been dealt with privately by the Scope team? No one would know this as it’s not made public. 
    I'd like to highlight this post as I think it makes a very good point. While Woodbine has been quite public about being on moderation, it is handled by the team as discreetly as possible and there are a number of active members currently on moderation. Further to this, we are in regular contact with many members of the community working towards a more positive outcome. 
    chiarieds said:
    Did another member accuse him of any wrong-doing, or was the perceived 'harm' from a moderator? I feel there's a difference between the two; perhaps not? The community's guidelines should perhaps just be that, 'guidelines', & then any judgement should be made with some understanding of the individuals concerned, together with a tad of common sense.
    I do feel everyone here should be 'moderated' in exactly the same way regardless of how long a member has been here, but perhaps with a modicum of respect as to what some have tried to do to help the community. 
    Thank you for your thoughts on this @chiarieds. It may not always feel like it, but this is exactly how we try and moderate. When we receive a report we look at the intent and apply common sense to the situation. It would be unfair of me to comment on this specific incident and Woodbine's moderation so I'll address this more generally.
    Unless in cases of a clear rule breach, the team try to take a step back from over-moderating and are guided by the reports we receive and any escalation on threads. Many people don't like to complain publicly or highlight they've been upset but as an example, this morning I had over 120 emails relating to reports from the community. The overwhelming majority of which were from members feeling attacked or offended by another poster or on a poster's behalf. 
    There is apparently a four stage model of moderation. Took me the best part of five years here to learn that. Even then, only because I asked why two weeks moderation had turned into three months. 
    The 4 stage moderation process hasn't been around 5 years, in fact it's not even been in place for 1. It's a fairly recent internal addition introduced to help the team deal with the growing problem of repeat "offenders". Previously the model was shorter, but left little room for the rehabilitation of members we judged to be of value to the community. Under the former model, a member who may have found themselves on extended periods of moderation would have previously been banned. Instead, we wanted the room to remove people from moderation..
    mikehughescq said:
    I’ve been in moderation for long periods at least three times. That has usually been because people didn’t like my tone. Two issues with that. Firstly it was not clear whether the complainant was a poster or Scope themselves. In one sense it doesn’t matter but when you realise that “tone” is not detailed in the site T&Cs then the alarm bells start ringing. Was there a complainant or was the complainant actually Scope? If the latter then you’re not applying a policy. You’re basically just making something up to justify your own discomfort. 
    I believe this is addressed in my response to Chiarieds above, but with regards to 'tone' I would imagine this is covered by the 'keep it friendly'. I would be reluctant to add a specific rule as tone is subjective, but I think as a community we all know 'keep it friendly' includes not being rude, passive-aggressive or committing the micro-aggressions which are sadly rife across the community at the moment. In the interest of confidentiality we don't reveal the sources of complaints and have no intention of changing that policy, although if you'd like some specific instances of where concerns have been raised to us over tone you're more than welcome to email me.
    The current policy of allowing all kinds of abuse but editing them out to allow questions to be posted is untenable; beyond ridiculous and, frankly, we should publicly ridicule it at every opportunity. 
    Thank you for this useful piece of feedback. While I don't agree that we should pull entire posts for the odd wrong word and feel editing still serves a purpose, I do agree that there should be a line drawn somewhere and this is something the team will discuss and review.


    On a final note, I am very disappointed to see personal attacks and accusations being levelled at the team. We have always been quite open in allowing criticism of Scope but personal comments on character, calling them 'over-zealous' or (to paraphrase) 'power-mad' isn't acceptable. While their duties do include the moderation of the community, there is a lot more to the role and it can be challenging and draining both mentally and emotionally. The three of them work incredibly hard, under difficult circumstances, and are extremely passionate about the community and its members. Yet they load the community every day to see messages telling them they're bad at their jobs. If there are genuine concerns or complaints about a member of the community team, then you are welcome to email me, but public posts relating to this topic will not be tolerated.
    Senior Community Partner
    Scope

    Your feedback is really important to the development of the online community, so please remember to complete our online community annual survey
This discussion has been closed.