Scope's reply to the governments planned concessions to the green paper.
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There was particular confusion about what Sir Stephen's promise to remove tighter Pips tests from bill would mean in practice – and whether MPs would get a say over it.
Speaking afterwards, one of the rebels, Paula Barker, said: "I am not sure that all colleagues understood what they voted for."
She said she hoped this "unedifying spectacle" would trigger a "reset" in the government's relations with its own MPs, adding: "Perhaps they will question why so many of us are doubting what they are saying."
"We all want the Labour government to succeed," she added.
Another rebel, Richard Burgon said: "If the government doesn't deliver on its promises on personal independence payments, if they don't take out cuts to universal credit there is a possibility that this bill could still be defeated.
"It is only a week to go but a week's a long time in politics."
Following the vote, the MS Society said: "We thought last week's so-called concessions were last minute. But these panicked 11th hour changes still don't fix a rushed, poorly thought-out bill."
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In the next GE, I won't be voting for anyone. I'm done.
If the Conservatives get battered again in May local elections, which I believe is inevitable, they'll stage a leadership challenge and, to save their seats, they'll bring buffoon Boris back, as he's the only one among the Cons capable of challenging Farage, who's farting increasingly louder. Boris would then paint himself with "MEA CULPA", acknowledging all his past errors and faults, and offering his profound apologies and remorse, while parroting populist rhetorics to fool the usual unsuspecting minds. Then, with him, the Cons would be back either on their own or will form a coalition with Farage's party currently run from his own iPhone, which he switches off whenever he gets drunk.
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Hi @secretsquirrel1 - yes, I watched part of it. One of the MPs said one of his constituents had ME, but he didn't mention anything about 'serious conditions,' he was just giving an example as to one of his constituents.
With 'serious conditions' the Gov't propose using those defined in the WCA handbook for assessors. This is not condition specific, altho examples are given as to who might qualify or not.
You can see the severe conditions criteria here if you scroll right down to Appendix 8 on p218:
You'll need to download the file first to access it.
I'll try to show it. You must satisfy one of the LCWRA descriptors, and
- all four of the following criteria must also be met:
Criterion
Description
Examples of conditions that might meet the criteria
Examples of conditions that might not meet the criteria
The level of function would always meet LCWRA.
The level of function would always meet LCWRA criteria
Motor Neurone Disease (MND), severe and progressive forms of Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson’s All dementias, All chromosomal conditions, Huntington’s severe irreversible cardiorespiratory failure, severe acquired brain injury … this list is not exhaustive.
Conditions which might be severe at times, but recovery offunction might be present for substantial periods, such as recently diagnosed relapsing non-progressive forms of Multiple Sclerosis or some people with less severe mental health conditions with periods of reasonable function.
Lifelong condition, once diagnosed
The condition will always be present.
Some lifelong conditions are present from birth, but others willdevelop or be acquired later in life.
Conditions which might be cured by transplant/ surgery/treatments or conditions which might resolve. This should be based on currently available treatment on the NHS and not on the prospect of scientists discovering a cure in the future.
No realistic prospect of recovery of function
Advice on this should be based on currently available treatment and not on the prospect of scientists discovering a cure in the future.
As per criterion 1.
A person within the first 12 months following a significant stroke who may recover function during rehabilitation, so whilst the condition is lifelong, function might improve.
Unambiguous condition
They have been through relevant clinical investigation and a recognised medical diagnosis has been made.
Non-specific symptoms not formally diagnosed or still undergoing investigation.
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Thank you 🙏. I just received my pip review form so I gave that to sort out now . My only recent treatment was physio but that was a bit of a weird situation and I don’t think I even had a letter of discharge and my GP didn’t get one either .
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So what in thinking 5 billion gone So they say up taxes autumn major outroar more attacks on disabled timms saying we need to go harder on welfare not fair on taxpayers this is an endless loop since 2023 sunak for months god have to be super hero's to get through this
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My eyesight not great came across this anyone understand
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I think it's for artist but must apply to all
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MadMilan, please do not cite me out of context. If you want to quote me, you are welcome to cite my post in full - but don't misrepresent me. Singling me out in bold is not very polite.
My comments were meant to dissuade people already upset from giving too much of their energy getting mad at the Telegraph's every inaccuracy. This is a long way from accepting or condoning the nonsense they print. If you had read my posts on this site you'd know where I stand on that subject.
At the end of the day, the wellbeing of people here is more important to me than scoring points off a Tory rag. Sometimes we have to pick our battles, and right now that's not the right one to pick.
Going back on topic. I don't think any of us know what has actually happened yet tonight. The next week will be pivotal, and so will the form of the review. It was interesting that most if not all of the statements about things changes seem to have come from Timms.
I still think Kendall has to go, but the govt have not done any of this logically. Imagine how much quieter this process would have been if they had just announced the review in March, not the green paper or the bill, and then formed a bill at the end of it and made changes then?Either way, the govt would be very very misguided to keep trying to hoodwink and manipulate their backbenchers around to get the same conditions in under different wording. But I would not rule it out. If Timms' review was to be moved forward, what of the consultation with disabled people? That will take time.
On voting - I voted Lib last time, they voted against the bill and so I would probably do so again. Unfortunately no realistic Green candidates in my area. Tory incumbent though. Looks like he either abstained or didn't show up at all. Could be either tbh.
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I like your posts and agree. There will be something that can be manipulated so they get what they want in the future. I definitely don't believe existing claimants are protected. Well, may be up to your next review. I know a young man that has just lost his PIP (Enhanced both elements) and a parent the Carers element this week. Regardless of what is voted through, the zero points or reduced points that has gone on for years will continue.
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If they are correct about the vast numbers of disabled people in this country, they have created one hell of a motivated base of anti-labour voters through this fiasco. An even bigger potential collective vote than Tory-loving pensioners.
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The new social proposal doesnt have fixed tiers, which I think is better, I need PIP support, but I could adjust to what I get being reduced and if it meant some other person did not lose eligibility with the money saved, I could absolutely live with that.
The benefit system as a whole has this problem, a rigid award system, only housing benefits are properly tapered to needs.0 -
I'm concerned that the Gov't thinks this bill is expected to be certified as a Money Bill, which is said on p7 under the 'Universal Credit and Personal Independence Bill:
https://commonsbusiness.parliament.uk/Document/96167/Pdf?subType=Standard
Hopefully more MPs will consider voting against this Bill on 9 July. As it stands it's more of a UC Bill now the PIP 4 point rule is said to be removed from Section 5, but the gateway for some future UC claimants will depend on a PIP assessment if the WCA is scrapped, & we don't know what shape or form that will take as yet until Timms review is completed.
Again, hopefully, the Gov't will realise that disabled people, & the charities that support them, need to be consulted, but will there be an actual consultation?
It was heartening to see some MPs speaking with their conscience, & speaking up for disabled people, but I don't think this Bill should pass before we know more about Timms review, & this is published.
Hi @Andi66 - you can see Timms Review of the PIp Assessment here if you copy & paste this into your browser:
https://qna.files.parliament.uk/ws-attachments/1817526/original/Timms%20Review%20of%20the%20PIP%20Assessment.pdf
Good point @Trevor_PIP - & something that should be questioned in Timm's Review concerning 'reviews' & how they 'justify' such a claimant losing out when they've had a current claim where they'd received an enhanced rate for both components of PIP.
This may of course be as I mentioned in my email to the Green Paper consultation, that claimant's need to understand more thoroughly about the descriptors & how to describe their difficulties. In this instance perhaps it was due to the initial AR1 form where claimants were almost led to reply with a 'no change' comment without detailing what exactly hadn't changed. The AR1 form that came out last Nov is better as it doesn't encourage claimants to simply reply with 'no change.' The Healthcare Professional assessors can however see a claimants previous claim(s), but we need to have it assured that they will indeed read these.
I'm not convinced that assessors can get things right when they're straight-laced with a 'tick box' exercise either. We'll all have to think how things could, & need, to be improved with all PIP assessments.
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The word "fair" is usually emotional not rationale, not fair on taxpayers, lets forget that almost everyone is a tax payer for the moment, but more to the point if they want to talk about fairness, is that people who are fit and healthy who can work and have a more fulfilling life are actually the lucky ones.
My sister recently made a comment to me, after I told her I need to lie down to rest my legs, "I wish I could rest but having to go work", my reply was "I wish I didnt need to rest", then offered to swap lives and reminded her she wouldnt be able to go out to see her friends, be housebound when she is a people person, no parties that she likes, no more trips abroad she likes, and she then accepted my point, for now of course, it will be forgotten in some weeks.
Even disregarding the social security tantrum the parties are having right now, it is clear this country has a cultural problem with taxation, no one has the balls to do what is needed which is to raise taxes proper, high income tax, higher NI, more on petrol, wealth taxation, junk food tax, we just have a huge obsession with not wanting to raise taxes due to a fear.0 -
"The Timms review will be “co-produced” with disabled people, leaving open the possibility that they will never happen." The Guardian.
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There is currently only one party worthy of my vote, the greens. But we have a awful voting system, which is assuring right wing politics thrives.
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"The process left Liz Kendall, the work and pensions secretary, badly humiliated with the U-turn coming just hours after she had told the Commons the new Pip four-point threshold would apply from November 2026 and emphasised the need for the Timms review to take its time."
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"Those with the broadest shoulders should bear the heaviest burdens." Keir Starmer.
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I am so sorry to hear about the young man who lost his PIP. If someone can be stripped from Enhanced to zero without any genuine change in their condition, that alone is profoundly alarming. It says far more about a system recalibrating its thresholds than about any individual’s needs. If this is what’s happening now, it’s deeply unsettling to consider what awaits when they begin rewriting the descriptors next year.
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DWP PIP changes have not been officially scrapped as yet
Parliament voted on the Labour Party government’s so-called Welfare Bill on Tuesday 1 July. Predictably, the bill passed. In fairness, Labour only got it through by 75 votes – which, given its majority, is a huge embarrassment for it. It seemed to go through partly because most MPs don’t care about chronically ill and disabled people. But it also passed partly because of government amendments to it, which seemed to calm some Labour MPs. However, in a storm during the debate the government announced it was scrapping all the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Personal Independence Payment (PIP) changes entirely:
Yet in reality, this is not the case – despite the corporate media reporting it as such.
DWP PIP: not Labour has not scrapped the changes
As the Telegraph reported:
Changes to the eligibility criteria for Personal Independence Payments (PIP) have been removed from the legislation pending a review, in another concession to backbenchers.
Under the proposals, claimants would have needed to score a minimum of four points – which measure how hard they find it to perform tasks unaided – in at least one daily activity to qualify for Pip from November 2026.
Currently they need to score eight points to qualify – but these can be spread over several tasks.
Sir Stephen Timms, the disability minister, had been set publish a report at around the same time as the change was due to come into effect, prompting warnings that the reforms would “put the cart before the horse”.
But in a dramatic intervention in the Commons on the eve of the crunch welfare vote, Sir Stephen confirmed the findings of his review would come out before any changes to the Pip system were made.
It is no longer certain that the proposed change, which had sparked fury from Labour MPs, will ever be introduced.
Sir Stephen told MPs: “Others across the House during this debate have raised concerns that the changes to Pip are coming ahead of the conclusions of the review of the assessment that I will be leading.
“We’ve heard those concerns and that is why I can announce that we are going to remove the Clause Five from the Bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms Review and only make changes to Pip eligibility activity and descriptors following that review.”
However, even though Timms announced this policy change on the hoof during the debate, some MPs were quick to point out that technically, nothing had changed:
That is, the actual Bill that has been laid before parliament still has the DWP PIP changes in it. So, this gives Keir Starmer’s government room to bring back these cuts if it wants to. Even the Tories were pointing this out during the debate. Shadow DWP minister Helen Whatley called on the Speaker to intervene on this very issue.
However, the government has not budged and the Bill in its current form it still now going to the next stage in parliament.
What happens to DWP PIP next?
So, what exactly will happen with the DWP PIP changes?
Well, there is nothing stopping the government reintroducing the changes. There is also nothing stopping the report Timms mentioned (the so-called Timms Review) from recommending the four-point rule.
Moreover, it is currently unclear what disabled people will be involved in the Timms Review. If it is charities such as MIND and Scope, then opposition to government changes will be weak – as these charities often fail to properly represent disabled people. MIND, for example, has historically had paid contracts with the DWP.
So, DWP PIP claimants are still none the wiser as to whether they will see the government cut their benefits or not – regardless of what the media and politicians are saying.
Moreover, Apsana Begum MP summed up the real issue anywaThe deserving and undeserving crips
The focus in recent weeks from both campaigners and MPs has very much been on DWP PIP cuts in the government’s Bill. Of course, this is an easy target to focus on for MPs looking to improve their reputation and win over disabled people.
Celebrity voices speaking out about DWP PIP cuts sums up the issue. Claimants of this benefit are the more acceptable face of disabled people reliant on the DWP. They often work. They’re often not working class. And they’re the kind of disabled people MPs can openly support. They’re the inspirational disabled people TV likes to show us.
In reality, the people hardest hit by the government’s Welfare Bill will not be the celebrity DWP PIP claimants. It’s going to be the chronically ill Universal Credit claimants, and those living with mental health issues, who will see their Health Element either frozen or cut – when they’ve already suffered years of cuts previously, and already do not have enough to live on.
However, these people are not the striving disabled people the media has been showing us. These are the scroungers that are costing hard-working tax payers too much. Therefore, who cares if they get hammered – as long as the deserving DWP PIP claimants don’t?
This tactic worked, as only 49 Labour MPs ended up rebelling against the government and voting for the Bill – a number that is half of what it was just days ago.
But fear not. There’s always the Assisted Dying Act if it all gets too much for chronically ill Universal Credit claimants.
Labour climbdowns over DWP PIP are not a win for anyone – not when so many people will still be irreparably damaged by the rest of the government’s malicious Bill. Spineless MPs don’t care about this, of course – because it is ultimately not them who is going to suffer.
Featured image via the Canary
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