Green Paper Discussion (from 24th March, 2025)
Comments
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Thanks for raising this @gamer1, I really value your insight.
I have to admit, I havenโt managed to scour the whole Green Paper yet .if I had, I think Iโd be completely burnt out by now. Just from a quick glance, I couldnโt see anything substantial on carers, which is concerning. I remember seeing a few posts floating around with valid points about the potential impact on carers, and maybe itโs worth asking Scope admin if they can help pull those discussions together in one place.
In terms of your question about old-style disability benefits, Iโll be honest , Iโm not too familiar, as Iโve only ever had experience with PIP and LCWRA (still pending decision). I really donโt want to spread any misinformation, but if youโre willing to dig into it more, it might make more sense in your hands than mine.
That said, along our previous discussions,I did spot on PIP that
Section 2 โ The future of PIP, assessment processes and safeguarding
(from point 155 onwards)
focuses specifically on the proposed PIP changes. Itโs heavy reading, but unfortunately, thereโs no other way to tackle this Green Paper than to dig into it and get our comments in. Iโm finding it really hard to keep track of where Iโve commented on this thread , and Iโm wondering if I should start copying key points into a Word document to help pull them together into the consultation response.Might be a helpful idea for others too.if Scope Admin has any advice in that area, it would be very welcome๐
(Just a heads-up: this Green Paper takes so much emotional and mental energy to readโฆitโs like it was written to wear us down. Please pace yourself.)
Weโre all navigating through this fog together, and I really appreciate your efforts. None of us should have to carry the burden alone.
Wishing you strength and solidarity always.
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No need to tire yourself out. Thanks for your help. Thank you.
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply . I completely hear what youโre saying, and I think weโre actually aligned in a lot of ways. Youโre right โฆ.theyโre absolutely not stupid. None of this has been thrown together carelessly.
An 84-page, purposefully wordy document with 301 points isnโt written without precision - itโs deliberately layered and deceptive.
Itโs been shaped not only from years of Tory policy erosion but also now with Labour signalling a continuation under financial desperation , despite their promises of change in improving lives for everyone, including vulnerable & disabled communities .
The problem for many of us isnโt with the idea of work itself - like you said, a lot of us (myself included) were working while receiving PIP. That money isnโt a luxury โฆ.. itโs what helps keep us in work. It supports transport, therapies, equipment,training and even just basic energy levels to function through a working week. For those on flexible or part-time work, and on reasonable adjustments (temporary redeployment),itโs a lifeline as top up wages to pay off essential needs/bills . And now thatโs being put at risk.
What really breaks my heart is knowing how many people -especially those on long-term sick leave(under recovery), or who will never be able to work again are staring down a future of being forced into a system with no safety net, no eligibility for PIP, no WCA(as it wouldโve been abolished by then).Itโs not a reform; itโs a trap almost like a sentence to indefinite/Temporary supervision under Job Centre work coaches under โright to tryโ guarantee (as they call it ) without any safety net of disability financial support. Again , we need to know how much cost has been cut here by these proposals as WCA will be abolished ,this person will Not be eligible for pip daily living 4 points so no UC health elements-pushing an ill person who has no financial safety net or the health to engage ย in work will only add to the already pressured nhs systems causing havoc not only in accessing timely supply but missing out - Can you see the damage here? Not only will the person suffer, but the NHS will also incur more costs to secure timely support.Yes , in the proposal I also saw their โsneakinessโ(as you say) that they propose so many billion pounds in making MSK Services accessible and developing some programme(truly I cannot read the green paper anymore. ย Itโs causing mental pain ).ย
All the senseless proposals clearly have a countermeasure for everything. We must not naively oppose them but instead have a strong awareness of everything theyโve put forward. Ultimately, their intent is clearly to cut costs โฆthe entire Green Paper is cost-cutting in its finest form, almost a legal narrative crafted to defend themselves in a legal arena.
However deeply you look at it (if you have the energy to), there seems to be no other intention behind it. They sell it as though theyโve created a once-in-a-generation proposal to support disabled people into workโฆ but I donโt buy it. Just because they keep chanting that they are โthe party of and for working people,โ it doesnโt mean they can justify forcing all disabled people into work while cutting the only safety net people have and then making the only remaining benefit, PIP, even harder to qualify for.
To be honest, some of the proposed changes within the NHS are great and much-needed for preventing long-term , chronic and irreversible disabilities(As long as timely interventions are accessible). But their proposals to abolish the WCA and toughen eligibility criteria are incredibly cruel -because of the intent behind them. I still cannot believe our own government could cause such agony to its own vulnerable citizens โ disabled people, their families, and children.
Unless I were Hitler โฆโฆโฆโฆ if I were a Prime Minister of UK (I wish !!) ๐ฌ๐งor the reincarnation of Liz Kendall๐ตโ๐ซ proposing these plans, especially at a time when the cries of so many are being heard through different sources, including from within my own party ย ,I would have ordered the withdrawal of the proposal with immediate effect and committed to rewriting the proposals in collaboration with disability rights organisations and charities.
Leaving all that aside ,you make a sharp point about the timing. I feel like theyโre really banking on public forgetfulness. Throw just enough โhopefulโ language into the Green Paper (aka)-a single PIP assessment, encouragement to try work but we know how these things get twisted in practice. Itโs about numbers(money), not peopleโฆ
I appreciate you sharing your perspectiveโฆ.it really helps to hear from others who are also thinking critically about whatโs being presented. Letโs keep this dialogue going and support each other through this.
Best Wishesย Have a great day!2 -
Iโll be okay @gamer1. Just understandably overwhelmed. Thank you๐๐ฝ.
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Germanyโฆ.
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I agree, watching the news makes me worse but it seems hard to avoid, especially online, I only really have a quick look on here and other disability charities sites to see if any of them have any news on a future court case againstb these cuts. I'm a bit fed up and disapointed with the lack of fight back from them, maybe I'm wrong and theyr'e working behind the scenes to start a legal case but so far Iv'e heard absolutely nothing and it's very worrying to think they might have become resigned to the fact they will push these so called reforms through.
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The way I interpreted it was ....
March 2026 , new claims for LCWRA get a cut , existing frozen
From November 2026 , Pip criteria change's....for New and existing pip claiments.... Descriptors remain same but you will need one 4 in daily , and have to get a minimum of 8 points to receive new health element
From now to 2028 reassessments for LCWRA will continue as normal with no change in criteria.... Then in 2028 when the wca is scrapped , pip assessment will take over , if you qualify you will receive the new health element which is the equivalent to LCWRA.... If you don't you will be expected to look for work
My god ๐๐คฆ
They have not thought this through at all ....
People in pip have a tough enough time qualifying for it anyway
People who have just ESA or LCWRA or a mix of both and do not receive pip are in some serious danger , it's actually frightening
Whats even more frightening is ....
- They don't actually understand what their proposing and how much danger their putting people in
2. Even worse they don't care ....
I mean we all talk and second guess on here , but if we all put that to one side and just really think about what they are proposing , I can't think of any way that this could even remotely work .... People will get desperate , can you imagine the chaos it will create for the government , the DWP the claimant ๐คท imagine trying to force people into work work with serious mental and physical illnesses....
They say 200000 people want to work , there's not even enough jobs for half of those ....
They say that every single person will have tailored support ๐๐๐๐๐ I mean that's actually laughable , I mean we all know what a complete state the DWP is in , not to mention the country , look at the incompetence at the moment , and they are actually trying to tell us every case will have specialized Tailored support .... That just won't happen
We all know this is simply cuts and has nothing to do with the welfare of us ....
Every one of our situations are different ....
All I can do is look at mine to understand why these reforms will not work ....
I haven't been out of my house in nearly six years , not once , not even in the garden.... I couldn't go to either of my nans funerals which I will never forgive myself for , I couldn't visit my mum in hospital after her heart surgery , my life is a constant long list of rituals that if any of you saw me doing would think I was absolutely crazy , honestly you wouldn't believe it .... I live in Constant terror , physically and mentally terrified with the darkest most awful intrusive thoughts , alot of the time I'm paralysed , can't move , can't talk , stay in the same position for days without movement....
Now again this is just my situation , I'm sure everyone can relate , as everyone on here has there own disabilities with there own challenges and obstacles....
Now how is it that they think that making an assessment that is already hard to pass , EVEN HARDER , to the point of nearly impossible , which will also have this black and white tick box culture to it make people's lives better ? Not to mention it will be the main assessment to be able to qualify for extra money , otherwise you need to look for work .... I mean this sort of blows their. " tailored surport " mantra out the water doesn't it ....
Theres nothing tailored about making everyone undertake a one size fits all assessment to qualify just to keep the extra money we already get now ....
I mean again I'm just looking at my situation as I'm not familiar with everyone else's .... But ok , I take the pip test and i fail let's say ....
So now I have to come to the jc and look for work .... Ok no problem....
Ill do that then ....
How do I get there when I can't get out my house ?
Ill have to do it when I'm not completely paralysed and shut down
Also I'll have to do it in-between all my rituals....
Also I won't be able to do it when I'm talking to myself and trying to push the intrusive thoughts away
Ill need to get ready , but my personal hygiene is completely knackered as I can't even get in the shower for months or brush my teeth regularly ๐คฆ๐คฆ
But other than that I'm fine to do it ๐ซ
And as you read this I'm sure you can all relate so much to this as you have specific needs and ways to navigate your disabilities
I can just imagine going for a job interview ๐คฆ๐คฆ I mean it wouldn't be possible , can you imagine them asking me a question but before I can answer it I need to do about 10 different rituals ! .... Tailored support my **** !
Theres just no way this could work , I mean it's almost criminal
As much as I think these reforms will come to pass one way or another , I really am starting to have serious doubts how they could do it in current form , far to much of it is not workable , it just makes me think there will have to be amendments , won't there ?
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I hope you are coping OK @noonebelieves ๐
Aren't there times when this all this becomes SO overwhelming AND draining. ๐ We should all be so proud of ourselves by knowing that we with near impossible odds, being forced to go through what no human being should have to through, we are STILL doing everything we realistically can to challenge these proposals and to raise all the awareness we can in the face of such overwhelming properganda.
To do this, we have to keep ourselves throughly informed about what's going on and therefore have to keep coping with so many things that are so triggering!! ๐ฅบ
We would not be able to do nearly so well with out each other's support, encouragement and individual knowledge though. Bring us all together as a collective voice and, although it's still extremely difficult, it's much easier to get yourself in a better place, making you much more capable of finding the inner strength to challenge what is happening. ๐ช
Let's look at it this way. Our adversaries in the government WHAT us to be completely isolated from each other, drowning in despair, and becoming more ill. This would then make us incapable of functioning at all, never mind being able to challenge their evil, flawed and misrepresentative intentions.
I don't think that is happening, as I'm sure you'll agree!! ๐ค
I've not long joined this community but I feel so proud and privileged to be here. I would be doing certain things towards fighting this, I know, but would not be coping nearly as well as I am, or doing as much as I'm doing. A substantial part of that is because of you @noonebelieves๐๐ค
As you've said, we are not only fighting for ourselves but for our families too. My partner and I are both disabled and claim PIP and are both paid to care for each other. If you can call Carer's Allowance and Carers Element being paid. ๐ The situation isn't as bad as it sounds because I have two 4 pointers on my daily living but my partner doesn't.
It will still result in a significant financial loss if he doesn't get 4 points in his upcoming review in 2028. At least he is state pension age and if the PIP fails (he gets standard daily living) he will certainly qualify for the standard rate of Attendance Allowance, as the criteria to get it is easier than with PIP, as it will be then, if it is not stopped. I would lose my Carer's Allowance though, as by that time I would still not be State Pension Age, I would still be three years away from that. We are a mixed age couple, my partner is 11 years older than me.
I have worked out that once I get to state pension age, with our Pension Credit for a couple, my PIP and either my partner's PIP or Attendance Allowance (standard for both are at the same payment rate) we would have the same money as we have now, as we wouldn't feel the loss of the Carers Allowance. However, our income would be before housing costs (we're in social housing) as we would get housing benefit back instead of the derisory amount of housing element that you get with UC. ๐ This means that we would have more disposable income so, in real terms we would actually be little better off.
The point is that at least we will, at our lowest point be able to pay the rent, to feed ourselves, to pay our bills and look after our cat and dog, who as far as we are concerned are family members too.
What about the thousands of people who are not going to be able cope!! ๐ฎ Disabled people who are nearing or already in poverty, WHO KNOW that they will not be able to eat, pay bills or keep a roof over their head! People who face destitution, temporary accommodation or even the streets!! ๐ฅ
Whatever did they do to deserve this? ๐ค ๐
The answer of course is NOTHING!! ๐ก
They are most likely to be people who are of working age, who are nowhere near pension age, who live alone. They will lose EVERYTHING. ๐ฑ
Plus thousands MORE, whether they are on their own or not, who might just about scrape by but the smallest change in circumstances will tip them over the edge. ๐ฃ
I hope that I'm not really depressing you even further, ๐ especially as I don't know what your circumstances are and don't need to know but I feel that whatever we go through ourselves, we have to fight for them too. THERE IS NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER, I believe.
Many of our fellow disabled, with the greatest of respect to them of course, don't have the ability to being able to fight this, like we can and many can't cope with, or can afford to use the internet.
They would very likely to also be unable to, for instance attend a real world disability cuts protest in person, which, to be honest I'm not up to either and by the sounds of it, neither are you.
All these things are organised online and unless they have someone else to help them with the process of finding out when these events are happening, they won't even know what's events are going on, never mind be able to attend.
I apologise also that this post has been so long but it breaks my heart ๐๐ฅ to see what is happening to us all. I admit that I've had a hard life and ill health for the last 21 years. I have had to go through all the previous government's shenanigans with this situation but I have never been through anything quite this bad. ๐ฅบ
It is the sheer scale of the deverstation to disabled people's lives that gets me, in a rich, developed country that is civilised and a democracy. That our governments could have bought us so low........ This government, I have not got the words that can sufficiently describe what they have bought us to.
I must say I do feel better for letting all this out but I do hope that this hasn't got you down too much. It's a beautiful, warm day again, โ๏ธanother reminder that there are so many positive things that they can't take off us , not unless you allow them to. I won't let them do that, they are not worth it and I'm sure that you won't allow yourself to do that either.
Do take care of yourself ๐ and I promise ๐ that I will continue after this post in my usually, largely positive self in the future! ๐
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I will crawl in that job centre on my stomach, half **** and pee myself, every time they want me there. I will have to have an ambulance every time, if thatโs what they want thatโs what they will get
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Was disability benefit as once called if I am correct change to pip so that it makes it easier to not associate the benefits with the word Disabled
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Before PIP there was Disability Living Allowance. As ESA took over from older out of work benefits, words such as "disablement" were lost. I remember being assessed for the Mobility Allowance we had before DLA. The assessment was tough but I saw a doctor. Gradually, words that clearly state the claimant's situation have been removed. Universal Credit could mean anything.
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Saw this and helped me understand a little better, not sure how reliably informed it is https://uk.news.yahoo.com/benefit-cuts-dates-pip-universal-credit-labour-dwp-173005485.html?guccounter=1
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My query is any changes to disability orientated benefits has to tick 2 important boxes. The human rights act 1998 and the equalities act 2010.
So just this government can ignore everything to pass laws? This saga has more miles in it than a done and dusted vote.
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I agree , it's hard to think how the changes will go through as they are ....but then if they do go through you have this incredibly terrifying thought of " what then " and the thought of it alone sends you spirillng into sheer panic
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As I've said before @Catherine21 just because you cant see charities doing anything, it doesn't mean they're not. Most of the work will be going on behind the scenes and directly with the government and MPs. ๐
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Beginning to think being in prison would be preferable to the future they have in mind for us.
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See : https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2025/04/06/dwp-pip-how-many-will-lose-it/
It tells the truth about the cuts planned by the government - how many will be affected and what ministers really think about the situationโฆ..
It also confirms that they haven't even considered whether to raise the threshold at which Enhanced PIP becomes your entitlementโฆ I mean, if you need a minimum of 4 points in any one category for standard PIP - It doesn't take much imagination to get to HOW MANY POINTS FOR ENHANCED ?
And for Enhanced to be slowly removed from the scoreboard - leaving perhaps 50% of current claimants receiving STANDARD with no ENHANCED
That would also imply that several hundred thousands of claimants have got better overnight - another tick in Labours box.
google "Aktion T4" and see the similarities !!
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