Question regarding PIP Application

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  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,674 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Wibbles said:
    I now have my KAFO full leg brace (After waiting almost 6 years for one) - it does help me to walk on the flat

    In a previous comment you said this.. yet now you're saying you can even stand and walk. One thing you do need to be careful of is contradictions.

  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    Yes - using my brace - I can probably manage 20 metres
    but WITHOUT it - I am UNABLE to STAND and MOVE - Which is what I am saying in my previous post
    "If you use a wheelchair or mobility scooter, "Please answer the question by telling us how far you can stand and move WITHOUT using it"
    This is not a question - it is a statement
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,674 Championing
    Wibbles said:

    "If you use a wheelchair or mobility scooter, "Please answer the question by telling us how far you can stand and move WITHOUT using it"

    The reason they ask that question is because of Activity 2F... "cannot either stand or move, aided or unaided more than 1 metre". https://pipinfo.net/activities/moving-around
    Anyway, we are continuing to go round in circles again so for this reason i'm out. Good luck with your claim.

  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    You don't use a wheelchair or scooter. You use a brace which is, I think, an appliance and with that appliance you can move over 20 metres. Therefore you do not meet descriptor e. You do not accept that interpretation and we are only going to continue to repeat that we have different interpretations, hence my earlier comment that there is nothing to be gained by going over it all again.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    Should have said
    calcotti said:
    Therefore you do not meet descriptor e. 
    Unless that movement is not to the required standard or cannot be achieved on the majority of days.
  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    calcotti said:
    You don't use a wheelchair or scooter. You use a brace which is, I think, an appliance and with that appliance you can move over 20 metres. Therefore you do not meet descriptor e. You do not accept that interpretation and we are only going to continue to repeat that we have different interpretations, hence my earlier comment that there is nothing to be gained by going over it all again.
    Sorry but I DO use a wheelchair for any distance over 10 metres outdoors 


  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    Wibbles said: Sorry but I DO use a wheelchair for any distance over 10 metres outdoors 
    That wasn’t what I understood from your previous thread.

    If you cannot manage 20 m to the required standard, even with the brace, then you meet the descriptor. 
  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    "Individuals who cannot stand and move 20 metres, in a safe and reliable way, will receive 12 points and therefore the enhanced rate of the mobility component regardless of whether they need an aid or appliance"

    I understand that the KAFO is an appliance rather than an aid
    In which case - even if I was able to move more than 20 metres with the appliance - WITHOUT it, I am still UNABLE to move anywhere near 20metres  -due to excrucuatng pain
    It's simple English
    So  - thats 12 points
    I have to crawl around the house on my hands and knees, due to inadequate wheelchair space - and anywhere outdoors, I am in a wheelchair.
    I realise that I may not have made it clear, previously, that I am a wheelchair user - for that I apologise !
  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    And...  There was no response! 
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Because we are simply going over the same ground as before.
    calcotti said: It was a (very long) previous thread about how to interpret the PIP descriptor on Moving Around. There is nothing to be gained, in my opinion, by going through it all again.
    calcotti said:.. we are only going to continue to repeat that we have different interpretations, hence my earlier comment that there is nothing to be gained by going over it all again.
    If, even with the brace, you can't manage 20m to the required standard the debate is moot in your case anyway. 

  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    Pure and simple 
    "Individuals who cannot stand and move 20 metres, in a safe and reliable way, will receive 12 points and therefore the enhanced rate of the mobility component regardless of whether they need an aid or appliance" 

    Why can't you see the error of what you are claiming?
    I assume that you know the meaning of "Regardless of whether'...."? 
    Will you also be denying my 12 points for care as well? 
    I give up
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,674 Championing
    Far too many contradictions in my opinion. Therefore there’s nothing further to add to what’s already been advised.
  • janer1967
    janer1967 Community member Posts: 21,922 Championing
    @Wibbles you are very adamant about this and the points you should recieve I truly hope you get what you are expecting 

    You seem very confident so I'm sorry but I don't understand why you keep on with this questioning and quoting 

    What will be will be will be very interesting to know what the outcome is 
  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    @poppy123456
    OK what is your interpretation of, 
    "Individuals who cannot stand and move 20 metres, in a safe and reliable way, will receive 12 points and therefore the enhanced rate of the mobility component regardless of whether they need an aid or appliance"? 
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    the Social Security (Personal Independence Payment) Regulations 2013
    Assessment of ability to carry out activities
    4.—(1) For the purposes of section 77(2) and section 78 or 79, as the case may be, of the Act, whether C has limited or severely limited ability to carry out daily living or mobility activities, as a result of C's physical or mental condition, is to be determined on the basis of an assessment.
    (2) C's ability to carry out an activity is to be assessed –
    (a) on the basis of C's ability whilst wearing or using any aid or appliance which C normally wears or uses; or
    (b) as if C were wearing or using any aid or appliance which C could reasonably be expected to wear or use.


  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    edited April 2022
    calcotti said:
    the Social Security (Personal Independence Payment) Regulations 2013
    Assessment of ability to carry out activities
    4.—(1) For the purposes of section 77(2) and section 78 or 79, as the case may be, of the Act, whether C has limited or severely limited ability to carry out daily living or mobility activities, as a result of C's physical or mental condition, is to be determined on the basis of an assessment.
    (2) C's ability to carry out an activity is to be assessed –
    (a) on the basis of C's ability whilst wearing or using any aid or appliance which C normally wears or uses; or
    (b) as if C were wearing or using any aid or appliance which C could reasonably be expected to wear or use.


    I know that the regulations are a different kettle of fish to the assessment guide - but why have they gone to the bother of producing a guide, if they plan to ignore it  ?
    The regulations are 9 years old and must have been superceded several times - including 24th January 2022
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers/pip-assessment-guide-part-2-the-assessment-criteria
    On top of our different interpetations of the rule - there is also the fact that DWP are totally unaware that I have a brace - as is my GP !
    It was arranged independantly of normal procedures
    And as advised by POPPY in another post - I do not update them
  • poppy123456
    poppy123456 Community member Posts: 59,674 Championing
    poppy123456 said:
    No, you do not need to update PIP. You simply tell them during the assessment because most have them.
    What i said was this.. ^^ You do not need to ring DWP every single time there's a change.
  • calcotti
    calcotti Community member Posts: 10,005 Championing
    edited April 2022
    Wibbles said:..The regulations are 9 years old and must have been superceded several times - including 24th January 2022..
    The regulations have not been superseded. I quoted from the current version
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/377
    They are of course open to interpretation, which takes us back to
    calcotti said:..we are only going to continue to repeat that we have different interpretations, hence my earlier comment that there is nothing to be gained by going over it all again.

  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    Thank you
    Let's leave it until I hear of my success! 
  • Wibbles
    Wibbles Community member Posts: 2,067 Trailblazing
    poppy123456 said:
    Wibbles said:

    "If you use a wheelchair or mobility scooter, "Please answer the question by telling us how far you can stand and move WITHOUT using it"

    The reason they ask that question is because of Activity 2F... "cannot either stand or move, aided or unaided more than 1 metre". https://pipinfo.net/activities/moving-around
    Anyway, we are continuing to go round in circles again so for this reason i'm out. Good luck with your claim.

    Also:
    Can stand and then move more than 1 metre but no more than 20 metres, either aided or unaided. 12 points
    You can't state only one sixth of the relevant descriptor! 
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