The Green Paper Discussion (the document link is here too!)
Comments
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Under the current rules I wasn't to be invited to apply for UC.
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PIP is functional. If fatigue prevents you from reliably being able to complete elements you should get the points and a tribunal is likely to overturn the assessor's incorrect view of your abilities based on that false assumption.
I had an assessor tell me that because I don't sleep during the day I don't get fatigued. They are very ignorant. I was dreading the tribunal but they actually paid attention and applied the law rather than asking trick questions the way the assessors do. I really hope the bumpf about being respectful in the green paper is true. It must actually cost more to have so many cases go to tribunal so they should try to get it right first time more often.
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correct as I also looked it up for pain and fatigue conditions and they are classed as physical disabilities.
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I will lose out with pip, one of my mobility one is 10, i get standard, but i get enhanced with daily living counting it up. my review is in 2032. And with my current conditions which wasn't as bad when I filled it in, plus copd i don't want to ask for another in case I lose it especially with these changes. I hope they don't call me yet
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Hope so Catherine 🤞. What’s your thoughts on all this ? I don’t think it’s as bad as I was expecting but I don’t understand a lot of it so maybe that was the plan . Terrify us then confuse us
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Fibromyalgia is classed as a lifelong debilitating condition which is also incurable so you should definitely qualify for PIP regardless of what they change the PIP descriptors to. I have lived with Fibromyalgia along with other conditions since 2005 and whilst it may not be my most debilitating condition it does cause me daily issues and is very painful. Not to mention brainfog and I even forgot how to spell my name once when I writing a card it literally went out of my head and was incredibly scary. I think the biggest hurdle for people with FM is that there is no way to test for it with a definitive test it has led to the situation that anybody with multiple mystery ailments just get classified as having FM when in actuality they may have a different condition. FM at it's worst flare up can last weeks and even moving to the toilet becomes almost impossible and very painful. I was very lucky as my GP his wife has FM so he sees first hand exactly what the effects can be and is sympathetic whereas some Doctors are not. I was a textbook case I was in my 20's had an abscess behind my eye and in my cheek which was antibiotic resistant I spent christmas and new year 2004/5 in hospital on IV antibiotics and have never felt well since that point, originally they thought it was post viral fatigue but I had a perpetual high white cell count over 22000 and they couldn't find a cause for it after every blood test and scan they could think of I was referred to rheumatology and was diagnosed by a consultant with FM then followed kidney issues requiring 2 months in hospital and a catheter and a year later bowel problems which are both common with FM. Don't let them bully you when it is time for your review, have somebody there with you who can advocate for you and if it helps begin keeping a diary of a typical week and how it effects you. Attend all hospital and GP appointments to have for a record of visits for your FM and you should be okay.
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It's going to be time limited. It's still not going to be means tested. At present the ESA support group is not time limited.
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I'm on LCWRA. So it's now likely I'll be reassessed in the next 1 to 2 years which means there's a decent chance I'll be classed as fit for work because this is what often happens when I am reassessed.
If I do manage to get back onto LCWRA and it's after April next year I will be getting £50 a week less.
This means I may not be able to afford to run my car anymore, if I can't I will become housebound again which will deteriorate my mental health further and I will not be able to go to the periodic conversations about work and support if they're face to face, which will probably mean my money will be cut further which will mean my mental health will deteriorate further, or stopped altogether which will kill me.
Even if I'm able to still have these periodic conversations it will mean having to repeatedly explain myself about my issues which I'm no good at, and it's likely the person wont be understanding and will be invalidating which is what I usually experience when trying to explain my issues to someone. Having to periodically go through this will be a worry that is always on my mind and once again deteriorate my mental health further.
In 2028/2029 when the WCA is scrapped and you'll have to rely on being successful at a PIP assessment. I've only had one PIP assessment and I was given no points and was lied about even though I had been qualified for LCWRA, PIP is already harder than the WCA and it will be even harder in 2028/2029, there's not much chance I will be successful at all which will mean I will end up on much less money and be expected to look for work, this will basically kill me.
I hope some of these things do no not go through or at least get watered down. Now I'm going to permanently have the worry of all this on my mind all the time now.
I don't have any fight in me for this, VSEDing will be easier.
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The new "Unemployment insurance" benefit wont be means tested, but it will only last for 1 year.
Then after that you'd be forced onto UC which is is means tested which means you'd get nothing in terms of money if over £16k and reduced money with savings between £6k-£16k with only a small consolation of your national insurance stamps being paid whilst on UC.
Guess another consolation is that they aren't means testing PIP which I was sure they would, but they didn't go ahead with that.
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However I think once your time limit is up you can then claim UC if entitled to it.
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exactly. I get pip for ME and fibromyalgia. Bad assessor again. This is the worry with the 4 point situation but I think I read Kendall in bringing in compulsory recoding , bet Atos etc won’t like that
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Thank you for your comment, I have asked the Mods to remove the original post. I am extremely worried and after the last week or so it's a lot to take in. Lots of us will be really worried.. I need to try and remain calm, just so very tired after all this, there will be a lot of analysis so need to take it day by day. Thanks
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More info for ESA (CB)
53. Unemployment insurance would be a new non-means tested entitlement for people who have contributed into the system. It would be created by replacing contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) with a new single entitlement, paid at the current ESA rate (currently £138pw) and will be time-limited. This would provide stronger income
54. Alongside levelling up the rate, this change would end the indefinite entitlement to contributory ESA for those assessed as having limited capability for work-related activity (for new people claiming). Those unemployed after the time-limited period would be able to claim UC, depending on their personal circumstances. We believe this reform would align with the removal of the WCA, by offering a route to financial support for those with temporary and short-term health conditions, including for those who may not be entitled to PIP and therefore not entitled to the health element of UC. during periods of unemployment for those with a recent work record, while revitalising the ‘something-for-something’ contributory principle in the working-age system. People claiming this would be expected to actively seek work, with easements for those with work-limiting health conditions.
Trying to get my head around the PIP scores. Hopefully someone will come along and advise. x
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sorry to disrupt, is there a summary or accessible version of this green paper. Finding it hard to follow 😔
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I didn't get a score of 4 on any one daily living .component
Its all so confusing, I understood it as being if you get one 4 then you don't get assessed for mobility, you just keep that part of your award.
It just doesn't make sense and its unfair for them to do this health insurance thing for a limited time for people who paid NI contributions.
What about if you' over the savings threshold to transfer to universal credit?
We still have no real idea of what health conditions mean you won't keep being .reassessed.
We need a lot more .clarification
I think they will face a back lash over this 4 point criteria.
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Just reading through all the descriptors having to get one with 4 points for daily living regardless of the total points awarded is going to affect so many people who will loose their PIP when it's reviewed. I don't think the media really understand how devastating this is going to be and how many people who rely on PIP and are unable to work are going to suffer and be pushed into real poverty. I'm shocked that it's a labour government doing this !!
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I see what you mean but in reality it will be means tested at the point the time limitation expires and you move to UC… which is means tested.
Someone like myself will stop getting the new style ESA support group payment that is currently joint means tested or time limited. Because in the new scheme it will be both and I’ll lose it after the time limitation expires. Aaargh
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My daughter currently receives LCWRA and PIP. She is 19, I read that LCWRA is not available to Young people under 22. Does this mean she will lose the benefit?
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Lol Have mercy
Did I hear Liz correctly new style contribution based ESA will be paid higher but time limited and cut off from financial support as soon as you do some work?
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Ok here is my thoughts on the green paper, I have ignored things like access to work, changes to job centres etc. and focused on the parts that affect benefit awards. I have decided not to compare to the Tories plans as those of course are no longer the future, but will mentioned when it is a duplicate/copy of what the Tores had planned, to indicate that in the end these are not all Labour's ideas. I didnt put this in a new thread to stick to Scope principle, but people are free to link to this post as I have quoted all the key points from the paper.
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37. First, we will scrap the Work Capability Assessment (WCA). This will end the state categorising people into binary groups and labelling them as either ‘can or can’t work’. Instead, any extra financial support for health conditions in UC will be assessed via a single assessment – the PIP assessment – and be based on the impact of disability on daily living, not on capacity to work.[footnote 44] This will de-couple access to the health element in UC (current LCWRA rate referred to as UC health throughout) from work status, so people can be confident that the act of taking steps towards and into employment will not put their benefit entitlement at risk. We will implement this change via primary legislation. Further details will be published in the forthcoming White Paper. We are not consulting on this measure.--So this is a duplication of the Tories plan, remove the WCA and require PIP daily living to be eligible for the health top up, although it is not quite the same as the Tories plan, as a further point below mentions those who currently have the health topup (LCWRA) might be able to keep it without PIP daily living. This new health topup will not affect mandatory activity. No consultation, so they will rush this in.
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we will increase the UC standard allowance for new and existing claims. This would mean the single person 25+ rate of UC standard allowance increasing by £7 per week (pw) (from £91pw in 2024/2025 to £98pw in 2026/2027)--
for people who already receive the UC health element the rate of the UC health element will be frozen at £97pw until 2029/2030 but this group will receive an increased UC entitlement in cash terms as a result of the increased standard allowanceAs expected a increase in the standard allowance, and some kind of reduction in the LCWRA component, this is now to be implemented as a 3 year freeze instead of the leaked 25-50% reduction. LCWRA claimants will still get a cash increase as the base allowance is part of their payments. As I predicted to start in April 2026. So if migrations go to plan, hardly anyone will have TP protection to mitigate it.
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we will guarantee that no-one who has been found LCWRA prior to April 2026 and remains LCWRA following reassessment will see their UC health element entitlement changed--What this means is if I interpreted it correctly, that people who have LCWRA before April 2026, will be eligible to keep it as a health topup without PIP daily living, however they will need to have one more assessment that maintains the LCWRA status. As detailed below this assessment will keep the same descriptors as is currently.
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for new claims the rate of the UC health element will be reduced by £47pw (from £97pw in 2024/2025 to £50pw in 2026/2027). However, this group will benefit from the higher standard allowance, which will partially offset this reduction.--From April 2026 onwards, new claims will have a significantly reduced LCWRA heath top up, the freeze is only for existing claimants, this is likely at the more severe end of the scale to fund the freeze for existing claimants.
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for those receiving the new reduced UC health element after April 2026, we are proposing that those with the most severe, life-long health conditions, who have no prospect of improvement and will never be able to work, will see their incomes protected through an additional premium.[footnote 46][footnote 47] We will also guarantee that for both new and existing claims, those in this group will not need to be reassessed in future--There will be a special category for people with very extreme conditions, this will have an additional premium to compensate for the freeze on LCWRA. There is already a special category which the Tories introduced to provide lifelong LCWRA status without reassessment, it is possible this will be pushed to the same group, but isnt detailed, as it also mentioned people in this group will never be reassessed. It doesnt mention if work activity will be required, but since "never being able to work" is mentioned my prediction is this group will have immunity or only light touch work related activity.
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This change to the UC Health rate for new claims will be combined with much more active engagement and support (our third step) so that entry onto the UC health element is not a one-way street where people are abandoned and very unlikely to ever work again, as is the case now. This group will continue to benefit from a substantial work allowance, which means they can earn up to £673 a month (or £404 a month if they get help with housing costs) without their UC income being affected (and without paying any income tax).--Like the Tory plans. As mentioned above, those in receipt of the health topup wont be by default exempt from work related activity.
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Our ambition is that additional resource will mean a very different offer for the around 700,000 people a year who currently undergo a WCA. Instead of queuing for a benefit assessment, disabled people and people with a work-limiting health condition will have a support conversation. This will focus on their goals and act as a gateway to a range of personalised support to help achieve them, for anyone who wants it. This support conversation will centre on employment, but in the context of someone’s wider health and independent living aspirations.--Currently to get a reduced more sympathetic work related activity program, a claimant needs a WCA to get in the LCW group, this will be replaced with an initial conversation to get similar adjustments. So should be an improvement for those who would go in LCW providing the person on the other side makes a correct decision.
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Fourth, as part of restoring faith in the social security system, people need to know that if they have paid in, they will get support when they need it. We are consulting on establishing a new, simple and clear “Unemployment Insurance” benefit through the reform of contributory working-age benefits.--nsESA and cbESA are also affected by these reforms.
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Unemployment insurance would be a new non-means tested entitlement for people who have contributed into the system. It would be created by replacing contribution-based Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) and Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) with a new single entitlement, paid at the current ESA rate (currently £138pw) and will be time-limited.--For people who have paid enough contributions, they will get financial support equal to what support group ESA is set to, regardless of their health and without assessment, however as a balancing act this is a time limited award, the length of time isnt specified, my guess would be 3-12 months. Since nsESA and cbESA do continue to pay NI for the claimant, it is possible when existing claimants lose their nsESA award, they may transition to this unemployment insurance.
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We will therefore shift the balance towards doing more face-to-face assessments, while ensuring we continue to meet the needs of our people who are claiming, who may require a different method of assessment (e.g., due to the need for a reasonable adjustment). In addition, in advance of scrapping the WCA, we will restart re-assessments to make sure that people are accessing the benefits and support they should be, which will mean better outcomes for people who undergo a WCA and for taxpayers. We will smooth and improve the assessment process for people who have severe and lifelong health conditions that will never improve. We are not consulting on these measures.--Refocus on face to face appointments as the main form of assessment as was the case before covid. In addition automatic WCA's will resume. There will be no consultation probably so that is rushed in as quick as possible.
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establish in law the principle that work will not lead to a reassessment. For people receiving UC, PIP (in England and Wales), or NS ESA (whilst and if it is in place), we will introduce legislation that guarantees that trying work will not be considered a relevant change of circumstance that will trigger a PIP award review or WCA reassessment. We will make these changes as soon as possible, so that they apply in the current system and as well as in the reformed system. By legislating, we aim to give people more confidence that they will not be reassessed because they have tried work. This change will also be communicated to work coaches delivering the benefit as well as to benefit recipients themselves to best support people into work--Like the Tory plans change the law so trying to go back to work doesnt trigger a new WCA. Although this is not as robust as the Tory plans, as the Tory plans were to stop WCA's for life, whilst the labour plans will still have automatic WCA's meaning an attempt to work could still be used against you on a future automatic WCA.
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As described above, we will introduce a new eligibility requirement to ensure that only those who score a minimum of 4 points in at least one daily living activity will be eligible for the daily living component of PIP. We will introduce this change through primary legislation. It will apply to new claims and for existing people who claim, future eligibility will be decided at their next award review. This change means that people could lose entitlement to the daily living element of PIP and potentially other entitlements linked to this award.--PIP daily living will now require at least one descriptor to score 4 or more points to qualify, no mentions of changing or removing descriptors when this is introduced. For existing claims this will apply on their next review.
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We are mindful of the impact this change could have on people and so want to consider how we can best support those affected. This includes options for transitional protection for those who are no longer eligible for PIP and the entitlements linked to their award. In addition, we also want to consider how to support those with lower needs in a large number of PIP activities, as part of these changes. We are consulting on whether those who lose entitlement need any support and what this support could look like (see consultation question 2).--There is the possibility for existing awards of PIP that if the rule change loses eligibility TP protection might be offered, a consideration is also possible for a lower level daily living award for 2 point only descriptors. This paragraph makes it clear this is not currently planned and is currently only under consideration, likelihood this was added following the recent disagreements in the Labour party.
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Therefore, we will launch a process to review the PIP assessment. This is a major undertaking which will take time and require extensive engagement, so any changes to the PIP assessment would only be introduced following the reforms set out in this Green Paper. To make sure we get this right, we will bring together a range of experts, stakeholders and people with lived experience to consider how best to do this and to start the process as part of preparing for a review.--Actual descriptor changes are yet to be decided and plans will not start in earnest until the announced changes are already in place. So descriptor changes will come later than the 4 point requirement change.
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Whilst the WCA is still in place, we will restart reassessments as they play an important role in taking account of how changes in health conditions and disabilities affect people over time. This includes where there is a deterioration in someone’s health condition but also any improvements, which may mean they would benefit from more active engagement and support to return to work.--
We will turn on WCA reassessments as we build up capacity to do so. We will initially prioritise reassessments for people who are most likely to have had a change in their circumstances including those who have short-term prognoses, for which we can reasonably anticipate a change in health condition has occurred (e.g., those with risks from pregnancy complications or those who have recovered following cancer treatment). Over time, we will then prioritise available reassessment capacity for other cohorts who are likely to change award.
Given the move to a multi-channel approach was driven by a public health emergency we now think we need to revisit this position and recalibrate – to focus on returning to doing more face-to-face assessments, while preserving alternative health assessment channels to meet the specific needs of people who require a different channel, for example as a reasonable adjustment.As mentioned above automatic WCA's are to resume, but they wont be turning it back on for everyone all at once, it looks like they will prioritise the lowest hanging fruit first, such as short prognosis, pregnancy, it is also conditional on the capacity to carry out these reassessments. Because of this my prediction is there will be some people who get to keep the health topup without another reassessment, I think the highest hanging fruit might escape reassessment prior to the WCA being scrapped.
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