Green Paper Related Discussions
Comments
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I’m sure I read on here that it can’t be passed as a money bill
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I might be being naive here… but the way I see it, is that there won’t be any u-turn (if any) until the consultation period comes to an end.
I do believe it will be watered down - but with them looking the good guys… probably along the lines after the consultation period and receiving all the responses, and listening to all the voices and concerns we’ve decided we need to reassess and come up with a new proposal.
I do think there high likelihood that they will probably go down the route of if you get 12 points, without 4 points in a DL descriptor (possibly more they could up it) you will keep pip, perhaps at the standard rate. This is a partial win for gov’t … they save money but have satisfied the rebel Labour MP’s. Either way Labour are finished and they know it.
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When the bus passes for pensioners were first introduced, they were for everyone over sixty. Prior to that the situation was a pass that allowed pensioners to pay a discounted fare, and a similar one for people with disabilities. When they introduced the free pass for pensioners, they eradicated most of the eligibility for the disability pass and made it much harder for disabled people to get any kind of bus discount. They also, for a while, made it harder for carers to travel with disabled people without having to pay full fare. There is now a C+ option but that was not there from the start.
You mentioned a Freedom pass, that's a London thing. I'm talking about the England bus pass, which is issued free of charge to eligible residents living in England.
When I said there were people in full time work who drove everywhere getting bus passes, I was talking about actual people I know in this area where I live. I know people who still do this, albeit fewer of them work now the age has upped to state pension age. But there's one regular bus user on our bus who also drives to Scotland fairly often. There are older people who use the local buses who never drive, like my parents. And those who do.
This is how the system actually works. Making it worse is that, even when someone does qualify based on Mobility (Moving Around), if the person is under PIP review at the time the bus pass expires, then they lose their eligibility unless they can go and get additional medical information to cover the time their case is being heard. You have to pay for a doctor's letter, these days. Not everyone can even get access to a GP. Some people lose their independence for months on ends because of these shortfalls. But the guy who drives to Scotland? His comes automatically in the post.
I have some knowledge of processing applications for bus passes, so I've seen how the system works both for age and disability eligible passes. 90% of older people passes are qualified for using an active driving licence.
Sidenote - I have 12 points for Planning a Journey on PIP. This is because I cannot navigate. I can't thus walk to save bus fares, because I get lost and put myself in danger. I also can't safely cycle. Despite this…I'm not automatically eligible for a bus pass. I had to get an additional letter from my GP stating why I needed the bus pass - and every time I come up for renewal, I have to check whether I need to get more evidence. The criteria are constantly being amended at government level, and this has implications down the line. There are people in my area who qualified through various initiatives who have also now lost their passes due to the funding running out.I am glad you find it easy to get your Freedom Pass renewed, but it's not that way everywhere.
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This letter from DPAC was sent to Sir Stephen Timms today. It really is worth a read.
Letter to Stephen Timms: urgent concerns over disability cuts consultation failuresDisabled People Against Cuts (DPAC) has today written to Stephen Timms, the Minister of State for Social Security and Disability, to raise our serious concerns with the quality and fairness of the so-called “consultation” being carried out on disability benefit cuts.We are asking for the consultation to be extended, and for urgent action to address the failings.We urge the government start again on welfare reform, listening to disabled people and carers in a genuine process of co-production.This is what we said in our letter:
Dear Stephen Timms,
I am writing to you on behalf of Disabled People Against Cuts (DPAC) to urgently raise concerns regarding the accessibility of the consultation on the benefits cuts proposed in the March 2025 Green Paper. In light of the limited time available for the consultation which is due to close on 30 June 2025, you are asked to take urgent action to address our concerns, confirm what steps are being taken and to extend the time available for disabled people to engage with the consultation given the accessibility issues they have faced to date. In order for the consultation to fulfil its purpose. Disabled people who are likely to be affected by proposed benefits changes, must have a proper and meaningful opportunity to engage with the consultation and accessible arrangements must therefore be urgently made to facilitate their proper participation in the consultation.
Our concerns
The face-to-face consultation in Cardiff on the 3rd June was cancelled less than two days after the venue was announced, with only one working day left before the event.
The DWP has claimed that the Cardiff venue cancelled the meeting at the last minute yet the venue itself was already inaccessible to disabled people. No transport to the venue was offered by the DWP for those who wanted to take part.
The booked venue was only revealed at the last minute. This was despite disabled people asking multiple times, over weeks, for information so that they could plan journeys, accommodation, and access requirements. The venue was far out of the centre of Cardiff, and completely inaccessible for many disabled people, especially at such short notice. It would have meant a wheelchair user travelling 1.6 miles unassisted. Shockingly this was the only face-to-face consultation event for the whole of Wales.
People at other DWP consultations in England have had similarly poor experiences. For example, lack of accessibility of the venue led to only 9 out of 15 people managing to attend the in-person consultation event in the South West.
The in-person consultations did not cover the North of England – Carlisle and Newcastle were completely missed out. For Wales, the North and South are poorly connected so any meaningful consultation would require not just an event in the South but another in the North.
In Northern Ireland no face-to-face consultations appear to be taking place at all and the date of the online consultation was only announced last week.
We have also received concerning feedback about the online consultations and the understanding of those conducting the meeting. One attendee reported:
It was also clear that not all participants fully understood the consultation questions or their implications, particularly those without background knowledge of the benefits system. This raises significant concerns about the quality and reliability of the feedback being gathered. At one point, the facilitator was unable to explain New Style ESA or JSA, and I had to step in to clarify how these benefits work, especially for those who do not qualify for income-related support. It was concerning to witness such a knowledge gap from someone facilitating a consultation on welfare reform.
Although we were told that all feedback would be recorded — even on topics not officially included in the consultation — it is unclear how that information will be used or whether it will influence policy development in any meaningful way.
The impact of the failure to make arrangements for accessible and meaningful consultation meetings
Only having online consultations and/or not having sufficient and/or accessible face-to-face consultations is unacceptable because, as I’m sure you’re aware, at least one-third of disabled people do not have access to the internet or the skills needed to take part in an online meeting. This obviously means that many people who will be most affected by the Government’s planned cuts to social security payments will be totally excluded from taking part in any consultation events.
We are concerned that the consultation not only doesn’t deal with many of the policies that are most likely to affect disabled people (as it only deals with 12 out of 22 policies) but fails to properly engage disabled people on those limited topics. We are also concerned that full impact assessments which would inform engagement with the consultation are not available and will not be made available during the course of the consultation.
The whole process to date seems inaccessible, chaotic and incomplete and given how few people are being consulted, both virtually and in person, we are extremely concerned about how representative this process is and whether it meets even the most basic standards of engagement with disabled people and their advocates.
Furthermore it is DPAC’s view that the whole process is flawed and is non-compliant with Articles 4 (3) and 33.3 of the UN CRPD and General Comment 7. It also violates the Gunning Principles and the requirements to make reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act and is therefore potentially unlawful. The only meaningful remedy is to withdraw the proposals and meaningfully engage with disabled people and our representative organisations to ensure all government proposals are compliant with the UN CRPD and equality legislation and ensure progressive realisation of the articles as well as compliance with equality duties. Failure to address these flaws may result in legal action and sanction from the disability committee of the UN.
It is essential that the government start again on welfare reform, listening to disabled people and carers in a genuine process of co-production.
In light of the concerns outlined above and the limited time available, we invite you within 7 days i.e. by June 16th to confirm:
1. What steps are being taken to ensure that online and in-person consultation events are accessible and available to affected disabled people across all relevant regions. This should include ensuring accessible venues, across a range of regions as well as adequate notice to allow for attendance arrangements to be made.;
2. That the time for engagement with the consultation will be extended by at least 4 weeks, to reflect the delays in making accessible arrangements and allow meaningful engagement with disabled people.
We look forward to your response by June 16th.
Linda Burnip
On behalf of the DPAC steering group
c.c. Debbie Abrahams, Chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee,
Katie Farrington, Director General Social Security, Disability and Pensions
Helga Swindenbank, Head of Disability Services
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Let's hope so.👍️
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I haven't seen it.
Maybe it will be on the news tonight.
I could be wrong but they seem to be focusing on younger claimants.
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Disability and MH don't have a age so hope they don't do that it's all just wrong.
This Government is so Messed up
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I agree but it seems to be in the media a lot about young 'economically inactive'
and mental health.
We should know more tomorrow.
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Fingers crossed we get some information as not letting us know anything is cruelty for us all
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I'm dreading it but they have kept us in limbo for too long.
We need to know our fate one way or another.
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Totally agree the impact this must be having on our health.
It's like being in a bad zone all the time no break from it. Fingers crossed for tomorrow 🤞
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Hope they don't get passed i really do
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Can you give more details on this please…
Substantial risk ?
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"I am glad you find it easy to get your Freedom Pass renewed, but it's not that way everywhere."
AR, I'm more confused now. I don't have a Freedom Pass and I've never had one. All I have is a 60+ bus pass.
It has to be renewed annually at a cost of £10 which I would rather not have to do. My ESA card got me half-price fares and I had to renew that annually. I can't count the number of serious meltdowns I suffered in those Post Offices and job centre getting them to validate my qualifying award. I don't have to put myself through any of that now.
I got my 10% discount at a frozen food store today but I don't understand the connection with your travel pass.
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You were the one who mentioned a Freedom Pass, not me? I've not been to work today, so I'm pretty sure my brain didn't confuse that xD.
I'll reiterate, though. Back when they first introduced passes for over 60s (as was then), they took away the equivalent discount for disabled people, except those they deemed 'most severe'. So a lot of people who previous qualified no longer did, and a lot of carers also lost out. This was a direct consequence of funding the free over 60s passes.
In my area there is no charge for a bus pass, unless it is lost and a replacement is required. There is a processing charge for Blue Badges, but that's all. This may be the confusion as different areas have different rules.
In my area, people who have what is now the over 66 (pension age) bus pass usually use their active driving licences as their proof of ID to qualify for it. Once on the system it is sent out automatically every five years. Even if they never use it. Meanwhile disabled people need to provide evidence every time their pass comes up for renewal, and the criteria can change. This can be complicated, just like any other disability related claim.
I have 12 points on PIP planning a journey because of navigation but only qualify for a bus pass because my doctor wrote a letter stating why I am not safe to drive. While I broadly support older people having a bus pass, the reality is that the initial introduction made things harder for disabled people. So the reality is that not all disabled people who can't drive get a bus pass, while all older people, regardless of whether they can drive or not, are eligible.
Sorry everyone for the diversion from the main topic. Back to green paper now.The 9million I thought was related to the WFA U-turn eligibility?
Its interesting they use the term substantial in substantial risk, since the Equalities Act defines disability as something that has a substantial and long term impact. The government do not seem to like that word as much as severe.0 -
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just read this in the mirror. Apparently labour are proud to scrap the vagrancy act , I guess they don’t want us breaking the law when we are all homeless. I will be sending this to Rayner and asking if she’s so proud of Labour for starting the welfare system does it mean she’s voting against cuts
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You said - "Obviously they've amended the system since, but it is still harder to get a disabled bus pass, and still requires a lot of evidence, while the age related one renews automatically."
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What changed to make it harder to qualify for a Freedom Pass?Amaya_Ringo, a 'disabled bus pass' is a Freedom Pass.
My 60+ bus pass costs me £10 a year to renew in person at a Post Office. That's all.
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